Nov 29, 2005

NSM's Bill White Blasts Local United Church Of Christ

Left: NSM members at the aborted October 15 rally in Toledo; photo by historymike

(Toledo, OH) National Socialist Movement (NSM) spokesperson Bill White lashed out at local members of the United Church of Christ in response to the church's plan to develop "peace teams" to be on hand for the return of the NSM on December 10 in Toledo.

Labeling the UCC a "small, heretical sect," White said that the formation of the peace teams to "presumably break the law and disturb the peace in order to stop the National Socialist Movement from saying things the United Church of Christ disagrees with."

The UCC has approximately 1.3 million members in 6,000 churches across the US.

White said that the local Toledo UCC is confronting the NSM over several issues, including "burning of their churchs throughout the Shenandoah Valley and Blue Ridge mountain area" and a "gay UCC activist" who purportedly posted comments at Google News that White is gay.

The pastor of Pilgrim Church UCC, Reverend Larry Cameron, disagreed with White's charges.

"I know absolutely nothing about his claims," he said, declining an invitation from me to email him a link to the website. "The formation of the peace teams is in response to the violence in Toledo on October 15, and our desire to avoid any future violence here in Toledo."

Contrary to White's claims, Cameron said that peace teams are expected to remain completely within the law.

"These peace teams are composed of ordinary people who go through special training in de-escalating violence," he said. "At no point are members of the peace team allowed to break any laws."

Cameron believes that the misconception about peace teams arises from the actions of radical members of the peace movement.

"Perhaps anyone drawing that conclusion is thinking of people chaining themselves to fences, or lying down on roads to block traffic at military bases," he said. "Peace teams are not about that; they work together as a non-anxious presence between groups for which there is the possibility of violence."

White implied in his post that the peace teams will likely disrupt the December 10 rally by "blocking roads and peacefully breaking the law and disturbing the peace." The true goal of a peace team, said White, is to "disrupt the free speech of people it disagrees with."

Cameron, however, denied that any such activity will take place, and described the goal of peace groups as "apolitical."

"All people deserve the right to freedom from violence," he said. "Peace teams do not take sides, and they gather solely for the purpose of helping calm down situations where there is conflict."

Much of the activity of peace teams revolves around dialogue, said Cameron.

"We have found that people are less likely to act in a violent manner when they are talking calmly," he said. "By listening and getting people to calm down, peace teams have been successful in reducing conflict and avoiding violence."

Pastor Cameron added that persons interested in becoming a member of a peace team can attend a training session this Sunday (December 4, 2005) at 12:30 PM. The training will take place at Pilgrim UCC, which is located at 1375 Sylvania Avenue between Jackman and Lewis.


Anonymous said...

What a sick freak.

Do said...

Peace Teams have been used in numerous situations involving an exicited, incited and anxious public over the past 25+ years. Mr. White is just torn with angst to think that he and his high-steppers might not get prime press on Dec. 10.

After all, there's enough BAD news to report on a daily basis. I do believe the local media would be inclined to provide unequal coverage of the 12/10 event - hopefully in favor of the peaceful folks.

Hooda Thunkit said...

We should all wish Pastor Cameron an uneventful Saturday.

If needed, I doubt that Peace Teams will have any positive effect. For them to work requires normally rational beings on both sides of the dispute.

We should also welcome Mr. White and his misguided followers to a very brief and uneventful visit on what could likey be a brisk, cold crowdless day.

historymike said...

I think that Do is onto something here, Hooda. Many of the white power groups believe that race wars are a necessary precursor for the whites to win.

They probably fear peace-minded people more than anything else, because they lessen the likelihood that there will be violence.

The neo-Nazi and white power boards were filled with statements like: "Here is evidence that whites are superior" and horseshit like that after Toledo.

Also, it was interesting on October 15 to see individuals like Mansour Bey, Ramon Perez, and Oshea Crenshaw step up and ty to do what they could as individuals in a sea of angry people to bring calm.

If there had been a dozen or two like-minded people stepping up, the violence probably could have been averted (IMHO).

Do said...

OK - I'm probably going to age myself on this one....Peace Teams (aka Intervention Teams, Distractive Responders, and yes, Balance Bullets) have been intervening in mass gatherings of opposing viewpoints for a long time. During the early civil rights turmoil in predominantly southern towns there were numerous 'teams' in place that were quite effective in diffusing 'spontaneous combustion' among the groups.

MOST law enforcement agencies have their own teams - specially trained by professionals - and using techniques similar to military tactics. I'm not so sure that Toledo has made use of that expertise. With this department being so short staffed they are likely to experience a lack of volunteers to attend/participate in that type of training.

There is absolutely no challenge to the NSM as far as infringing on their First Amendment rights. If the NSM can enjoy those rights, so can the Peace Teams.

Mr. White has chosen to spin the tale to tell you that the Peace Teams will interfere with the NSM being able to express their views. If I am a member of a Peace Team and I choose to speak to a spectator and that spectator chooses to listen, then how does that stop anyone in the NSM from continuing to speak? I am NOT saying that he/they don't have the right to speak, I'm NOT attempting to stop them from speaking, I AM simply offering the spectator(s) an alternative voice.

Think about it, Mr. White. You have truly spun this one out of the field.

historymike said...

Mr. White views anything with the word "peace" in it to be part of some Jewish-communist, New World Order-type conspiracy.

Also, I should point out that Reverend Cameron specifically distanced himself and the peace teams from activist groups like the ARA. He believes that "paid agitators" whipped up the collective emotions of the crowd on October 15.

As far as Cameron is concerned, the pro- and anti-racist forces both contributed to a heightened level of conflict, and peace teams could help reduce that tension.

Nikki said...

Do - you said a mouthful. The thing that bothers Bill White the most is whether or not he will get a bevy of press coverage. He HAS TO BE spotlighted. The very idea that another group could steal some of the limelight is unacceptable to Mr. White.

Also, he knows that the more he spins ANYTHING coming out of Toledo about the event - the more tension builds. He will play it for all it is worth.

One of the things that White said during his first visit was they wanted to see the opposition get violent - they wanted to see people going to jail. With a Peace Team - that probably isn't going to happen so that spoils his fun and his strategy.

From all that I have heard and read, I think we are going to see a completely different kind of happening in Toledo on December 10. I hope I am right.

historymike said...

I hope so, Nikki, but all sides are playing it close to the vest at the moment.

Oddly, the most predictable this time is the NSM. They have been working VNN and Stormfront to mend fences and get as big a turnout as they can. Bill is investing a lot of political (and possibly financial) capital on this event.

I expect that they will have a higher turnout than October 15, and that they will work hard to beat Hal Turner's 40-50. I don't think a turnout of 100 is impossible for them, based on the number of posts on placs like VNN for things like carpooling.

The antis are giving me only hints right now. I just got an email from a new goup; I am waiting for them to give me permission to quote from it, but it sounds like a new approach is in the offing.

City officials are officially mum right now, and my police/city contacts have heard nothing but speculation so far. I suspect that the city wants to delay as long as possible to keep the anti-racist factions from mounting the kind of campaign they did in October.

Do said...

Well, I for one will be talking with some folks in regard to 'peace mongering' instead of the NSM format of the day.

I volunteered at the Erase the Hate rally on 10/15 and can tell you that there are a lot more people that just wish to get along than there are hatred spewing fools that need to dance in the spotlight just to feel they have value.

I know that there will be a turnout to some degree on 12/10. My instincts are telling me that while there will be some that despise the message of the NSM there will be more observers that just want to gawk at the side show. I doubt that Mr. White and his troupe of merry men will get the stage presence they so desperately seek.

historymike said...

I hope so, Do. The best possible scenario would be a dozen Nazis, 15 degree NWO winds, and no spectators.

This will likely be the biggest white power rally since Yorktown, VA this past June, at least in terms of neo-Nazis and white supremacists.

I have heard mostly rumors thus far from the antifa (short for "anti-fascists"). One group has emailed me and told me off the record they are going to show(they'll let me know when I can run it), while I have heard rumors that another group wants to concentrate on holding alternative events away from the neo-Nazis.

A third group that I am unfamiliar with emailed me today; I am not sure if this is an umbrella group or a single activist faction.

Thus, at the moment I am not hearing of a coordinated coalition like October, but I have to add that I am not exactly the best pal of the left, and some acquaintances I have in the various movements think I am either too mainstream or working for the police.

Oh well. I can't seem to keep anyone happy any more. :-}

Nikki said...

Well...I don't think White has been very successful in mending too many fences. He got booted off of VNN and I have yet to see anyone crying about it. But they have made some contacts in the area with a bunch of there could be several more Nazi's on parade than the first go-round.

It sounds like Toledo is going to be a lot more prepared this time. I hope that I am not being overly optimistic.

antifa said...

The Peace Team is a police proxy whose primary purpose is to protect groups of racist terrorists.
At a 1998 Klan rally in Ann Arbor the Peace Team worked closely with the police. The Peace Team physically blocked anti-racists from removing a fence while police shot pepper spray at the anti-racists. A few members of the Peace Team threw punches at anti-racists and several members of the Peace Team testified against anti-racists who were charged (and found not guilty) of damaging the chain link fence.
If you are considering joining the Peace Team I would ask you to think twice about it. Why would you possibly want to spend your time protecting racist terrorists?

Mr. Schwartz said...

Bill White's best friend and best buddy in college, Luke Kuhn, has confirmed that him and White had a 4 year gay affair while attending the University of Maryland from 1996 to 2000. Luke & White would quite often show up at gay rallies and even protested the crackdown against open sex by gays at Rock Creek Park. Luke Kuhn is openly gay and was openly gay when him and White were together.

White lies today and says every single one of those post were forgeries but yet, the headers show they came from his computer.

Bill White has come full circle from gay activist to neo-nazi.

Here are just a few of their postings when they were together. Note, there is nothing wrong in itself in being gay, it just happens to be Bill White is gay and hates other gays because of it.

historymike said...

Man, the Peace Team idea just gets no love, does it? The neo-Nazis claim they are in league with the antifa, and the antifa says they are working with the police.

I have seen these statements made before about Bill White. I have to add that Bill White publicly disavows any suggestion that he is gay, and has filed lawsuits against those who make that claim.

In looking at the headers of the usenet posts, they show an link, but I am not sure that a case can be made for a direct link to Bill. Did he allow admin or email privileges to multiple users in the past? If so, then Bill could convincingly argue that others were free to use their accounts in any legal fashion.

Am I missing something here?

antifa said...

Bill White's story about the Peace Team is absurd just like all of the "news" stories that he releases. This one time "national socialist" scum bag is considered to be a professional liar by anyone who knows his history.

I have no idea whether the Peace Team leadership will coordinate with the police in Toledo but it seems unlikely that they would not. Very very few Peace Team volunteers are likely working with the police. I only seek want to alert potential volunteers in the Peace Team to the actual role they will be playing on Dec 10th. I think volunteers should really consider whether it is wise to essentially become an untrained and unequipped police officer in a volatile situation.

You do a great job on this blog it is a truly a valuable resource. Obviously you can hold any opinion you want about Anti-Fascists however I ask you to reconsider putting us on the same level as racist terrorists. It seems more then a little unfair.

Do said...

I'd like to clarify my statement: Well, I for one will be talking with some folks in regard to 'peace mongering' instead of the NSM format of the day.

I did NOT say I was joining a "Peace Team." I DID say that I was going to talk to some folks about 'peace mongering' as an alternative to the NSM's message.

I no longer get paid to protect either side of this matter. If the city is willing to furnish me with the necessary equipment then I would still have to think long and hard about it.

There ARE alternatives to the groups mentioned. If you are one that is interested in helping educate Toledoans you should contact your local Community Development organization, your local churches, blockwatch leaders, etc. Volunteers are a precious commodity and a rare one, as well.

While I don't agree with the NSM I still have to accept that they are afforded protection from harm, as are the opposing groups. It's a horrible balancing act for anyone to have to perform. Kind of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of thing.

The history that has prompted any of these groups (racists, anti fa, anti semite, etc.) can't be changed. We should all have learned from it, taken the opportunity to grow out of it, and aspired to something greater.

I love the snow, and the weekend of 12/10 I am going to pray for a manageable blizzard. I'm not sure that even Bill White is willing to stand outdoors and freeze his precious cajones off.

In short, if you wish to visit Toledo and state your case, I'm not sure you can be stopped. But please keep this in mind....if ANY group stated that they were coming to your town with a message that YOU thought was inflammatory to your community I'm sure you would be less than pleased and would be hoping to do whatever you could to divert the event. That's all Toledo is doing. Trying to protect 'home plate' and acknowledge the majority of our population that are decent folks.

Anti-Fa - if you are in Toledo on 12/10, please be respectful of OUR turf. We believe in your right to your opinion and the stating of such, but not any kind of antagonistic behavior that will promote violence in our city.

historymike said...


It is interesting that you find my reporting to be "putting [you] on the same level as racist terrorists."

I get the same complaint from the pro-white and neo-Nazi forces, who tend to view me as a mouthpiece for the antifa.

At the risk of jeopardizing my reputation as a journalist, I will say that I have more sympathy with the antifa than I do with the white power movement.

That being said, I think some antifa groups push the boundary from "counter-protest" to something more like "volatile confrontation." While I understand the motivation that many in the antifa movement feel, I think it might be more effective for society writ large to counter messages of hate with weapons like humor and intellectual debate.

As a recent poster ("Nazi Killer") indicated: "You do things your way and I'll do things my way."

I personally prefer peaceful means, but I understand that many on both sides do not see this as a viable option.

As far as Bill being a "professional liar:" I have been picking apart a few of his news stories at Overthrow when they catch my eye, or when they have a direct effect on Toledo. I recognize that "truth" is a relative term to Mr. White, but I think it is important to recognize that Bill is extremely gifted at generating publicity. His outrageous posts, I believe, are meant to generate media coverage.

And looky here! That little blurb yesterday has already generated dozens of posts on boards and blogs.

Thanks, antifa, for your thoughtful words about my coverage. I am attempting to maintain an unbiased look at the effects of NSM's visits on my city, as well as to bring a higher level of intellectual discussion to an explosive topic. It is especially meaningful to me given the attempts by a few rogue elements in the white power movement to smear me, and for the criticisms that I get from local people who think I am giving NSM and the white power movement too much attention.


I applaud your sense of civic duty, and your desire for the next visit to be unevetful.

Yes, the neo-Nazis have constitutionally-protected speech so long as they don't cross over into inciting violence, and they should be permitted to preach their message.

Like you, I believe that Toledo could get no better Christmas gift (warning! - religious bias alert) than to be blasted with 12 inches of snow and 40 MPH gale force winds that day.

antifa said...


I don't think your coverage puts anti-fascists on the same level as these racist terrorists.

I mistook your comment that "Cameron is concerned, the pro- and anti-racist forces both contributed to a heightened level of conflict" as being your opinion of the events. My mistake!

Mr. Cameron's opinion gives me the impression that these two groups are responsible for the conflict and on the same level. I do not believe that this is the case. NSM is solely responsible for their attempt to "march" through Toledo. Those who turned out in mass to oppose the Nazis did their city a service by denying the Nazis a safe haven. Truly the rioting that occurred in the aftermath was unfortunate and sad but it is a predictable result of police attacking those who came out against the Nazis.

I think the coverage on the NSM as it relates to Toledo is important and should not be ignored. Sticking ones head in the sand won’t make the issues or sentiments the Nazis are responding to change. Things are only getting worse in the Midwest and there is about to be a lot of out of work white men as the auto industry shuts down production work. We better start talking about other avenues and directions we can take in order to deal with the social and economic crisis in our communities. If we don’t then the racists are going to gain a lot more support and that can’t lead to anything good.

Keep up the good work and don’t worry about who you are making happy with your reporting or your comments.

Mr. Schwartz said...


Think about this. If he wasn't gay, why does he get so upset about being called one to the point he files a bogus lawsuit against google for them carrying a news story about it? He's too over-sensitive of being called gay to be straight. If someone calls me gay, I don't care, I know I'm not.

Another thing to remember is Luke Kuhn is the ONLY person besides Bill to have an email address. Another point, Luke Kuhn has publically admitted to having the gay relationship with Bill. I think his email at but it has been a few years since I asked him about this.

As far as antifa are concerned, some go way over the line by breaking the law. They have a hatred for the cops that even the racist don't have. The racist love having the cops around as Hal Turner pointed out in his speech. The nazis in Toledo wouldn't have been calling people n***gers if the cops weren't surrounding them.

I think the antifa also use the cops for protection. Think about, you don't see the antifa attacking racist at their homes away from the cops do you?

The Decemeber Toledo rally will happen with the nazis but it isn't going to be that big of a deal when it is over with this time. Maybe 40 will show up, with 500 cops keeping them 100s of feet from the protestors.

historymike said...


Thanks for your kudos; there are days when a person in my shoes begins to question if the shellacking being dished out is worth the trouble.


I was not privy to the statement from Luke Kuhn; I have another contact who knows him and may be able to get a quote on that topic.

As far as December 10, here is what I know (or think I know):

1. NSM wants a strong showing, and Jeff Schoep has personally committed to this event. This is, in a way, a test of the current leadership. If it's a bust, this might be the time Bill White makes his power play.

2. The antifa is staying way under the radar this time, and want to delay releaasing their plans as long as possible. I have a contact who says that something "very different" is being planned, but I have no clue as to what that might be.

3. TPD will have "twice as many" police personnel on site on December 10, according to an informed source I have in the department.

4. I am speaking at a community forum tomorrow on the events of October 15, and I should get a better idea of the alternative events being planned for December 10.

Do said...

Mike - when you speak at the Community Forum I hope that you can address the need for increased involvement of ALL the communities - not just the 'minority' neighborhoods.

The ripple effect of poor behaviors, bad press, and the ill will generated by events such as 10/15/05 are disseminated nationally for the entire country (the world!) to judge us. It's not fair, but it is fact. There is absolutely no solid reason why a minute number of 'bad apples' should color us all as worthless. I, for one, am a valuable being. I don't care what Bill White says.

Toledo is a great city, full of history and culture. It's also full of diversity - given half a chance. Toledo's worst enemy is apathy on the part of the communities. Until we (yes - WE) develop some self respect and pride about where we live we will continue to be referred to by names like Toleduh, Rust Belt, Brain Drain Central, etc.

Stand up people! Stand up, be proud, be loud. But be respectful. Give what you would like to get.

The likes of groups like the NSM can only achieve their goal if WE LET THEM. Ignore their antics, aspire to a higher level of personal achievement and let the NSM march around for a couple hours and then pack it in and go home.

There have been dissident groups since the beginning of time. They won't cease to exist ever. We just need to look at them like temporary instabilities in everyday life. Kind of like a flat tire and a long wait on a tow truck. It eventually gets fixed, you just have to wait it out.

I think I'm going to do some shopping on the 10th. The mall crowds are much more entertaining than the NSM.