Jul 25, 2006

Saudi King Warns of Wider War

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Left: Israeli tanks in Maroun Al Ras, a Lebanese village overlooking the border

(Riyadh) Facing criticism at home, Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah warned the United States that Israel's miltary actions could result in a wider war if not checked.

"Saudi Arabia warns everybody that if the peace option fails because of Israeli arrogance, there will be no other option but war," he said to state media. "Then, only God would know what wars and conflicts the region would see, which would harm everyone, even those prompted now by their military power to play with fire."

The king announced donations totaling $1.5 billion to Lebanon, according to the royal court statement. $500 million has been targeted for the reconstruction of Lebanese infrastructure, and $1 billion will be deposited in Lebanon's central bank to prop up the sinking economy. Aid totaling to $250 million will be given to the Palestinians to help rebuild the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

The military campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, begun 14 days ago, has resulted in the deaths of nearly 400 civilians and billions of dollars worth of damage to roads, power plants, bridges, and airports. Approximately 120 Palestinian civilians have been killed in the concurrent military offensive in the territories of Palestine.

Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud al-Faisal met with British Prime Minister Tony Blair prior to a planned visit to Washington.

"I think we both agree that the real solution is to have Lebanon come back to its sovereignty and territorial integrity," he said to reporters afterward. "For that to happen there must be a first step, which is a ceasefire to stop the bombing that is happening."

The US continues to balk against any cease-fire deal that does not include the de-arming of Hezbollah and other preconditions, what US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice called an "urgent, but enduring" Middle East ceasefire.

52 comments:

Anonymous said...

BIAS ALERT! BIAS ALERT!!

You are no longer History Kike but "History Wahhabi."

Can you get any more sickening with your Hezbollah worship? Geez!

historymike said...

Sorry, not enough "DAMN THE ISLAMO-FASCISTS" for you, anonymous?

Check in over at FOX for that stuff, pal.

LTLOP said...

Geez Mike,

First it was History Kike now History Wahhabi. Next thing you know they will be calling you a Polack or a Pervert. Well we Polacks don't want you and I haven't seen you at the Perv meetings. ;-}
In all seriousness, you seem to have the most unbiased, straightforward reports out there. Its like you've got journalistic integrity or something.

Borg said...

"Then, only God would know what wars and conflicts the region would see, which would harm everyone, even those prompted now by their military power to play with fire."--Prince Somethinorother

--

Arrogant prick. These guys are always promising "the mother of all wars", then turning around and screaming, "humanitarian crisis!" whenever someone steps up to the plate to hit them back.

Maybe he's forgotten that half of a century has passed between May , 1948 and today, and that the combined might of seven nations FAILED to push a measly two million Jews out of the Holy Land.

He's long on talk, and short on victories. But that's okay. If it comes right down to it, we'll just round up all the resident moonbats and air mail them straight to the Saudi Royal family. Can you imagine the shrieks of indignation and torture?

Now I would call that a "measured response".

ROTFLMAOH!

Borg said...

"The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority ... whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing ... they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defence of the western countries."--George Orwell

Kathleen Marie said...

God's cocenant with his people Israel and all followers of Jesus Christ remain true to this day.

Here is an article I fully agree with.

Israel's war separates the decent Left from the indecent Left By Dennis Prager

http://jewishworldreview.com/0706/prager072506.php3

Borg said...

Dear Kathleen Marie,

I will enjoy reading this article, and can already tell we agree 100%.

It's good to know I'm not the only clear-headed one around these parts.

Long live Israel!

Borg said...

"Amos Oz and James Carroll are men of the Left who have been tested and passed the most clarifying moral litmus test of our time — Israel's fight for existence against the primitives, fanatics and sadists in Hezbollah and Hamas and elsewhere in the Arab/Muslim world who wish to destroy it. Anyone on the Left who cannot see this is either bad, a useful idiot for Islamic terrorists, anti-Semitic or all three. There is no other explanation for morally condemning Israel's war on Hezbollah."--Dennis Prager

--

Absolutely, 100% true!

Dariush said...

LOL! Dennis Prager dishing out the same thing he always does: self-serving "zionist" claptrap.

Hey, I wonder what Don Feder, Daniel Pipes or Martin Peretz have to say about the current conflict? :)

What's the matter, Borg? The hasbara being pumped out 24-7 by all the cable news outlets not enough for you?

Meanwhile, it looks like the Israelis are having a rough go of it. Imagine, the he-men of the IDF, having to fight a professional, well-trained, well-armed, highly disciplined guerrilla force -- instead of 13-year-old kids armed with rocks and slingshots, or Hamas militiamen who don't know one end of a rifle from the other. Oy vey, ven vill the poisecution end already?


***********


AP: Israel faced tougher-than-expected ground battles and bombarded targets in southern Lebanon, hitting a convoy of refugees.

Israel's defense minister said his country would accept an international force, preferably NATO, on its border after it drives back or weakens Hezbollah. But his troops described the militants they encountered as a smart, well-organized and ruthless guerrilla force whose fighters do not seem afraid to die.


[snip]

In the far south, fighting with Hezbollah raged around the Israeli military's foothold in Lebanon — the border village of Maroun al-Ras, where the Israeli army has maintained a significant presence since Saturday. But so far they were not advancing.

[snip]

Israeli troops returning from the front described Hezbollah guerrillas hiding ... in underground bunkers two or three stories deep — evidence, they say, that Hezbollah has been planning this battle for many years.

"It's hard to beat them," one soldier said. "They're not afraid of anything."

The soldiers, most of whom declined to give their names under orders from superiors, described exchanges of gunfire in between houses on village streets, with Hezbollah guerrillas sometimes popping out of bushes to fire Kalashnikovs, rocket-propelled grenades and anti-tank missiles.



************


The Times (of London): Despite more than a week of unrelenting Israeli bombardment of Hezbollah positions, Max's Hornet battalion and several other units had run into serious trouble.

"We entered a scrubby area looking for Hezbollah rocket launchers," said one of the commandos hunting the underground sites used by the militiamen to target northern Israeli cities.

The soldiers quickly found a steel trapdoor hidden by bushes. "We opened the door and discovered a well-equipped underground bunker with several rooms for up to 10 Hezbollah fighters," the soldier said.

The bunker was empty, but as an Israeli soldier came back through the trapdoor, a Hezbollah sniper struck, killing him with a bullet through the eye.

"We were almost immediately ambushed. The Hezbollah know every rock and bush there," said another of the soldiers. "We called in a chopper and it fired missiles. We used to fight the Palestinians, but these are a different breed of warriors, these Shi'ites."

After a heavy gun battle, the Israeli commandos withdrew.

Another unit was operating nearby in the Lebanese border village of Maroun-a-Ras. Though it had been flattened by Israeli air attacks soon after its residents had fled, Hezbollah fighters remained in their bunkers, waiting for ground forces to arrive.

On Thursday afternoon, Major Benjamin Hillman led his Israeli unit straight into another ambush.

Both the major and one of his men were shot dead. When the remaining soldiers tried to turn back, they were ambushed again from another flank. Four more soldiers were killed.

It was only under heavy artillery cover and with the help of a tank unit that the remaining soldiers were able, two hours later, to scramble back to the Israeli side.

Resting by the towering oak tree, Max looked pale and tired as he stretched out his legs, still in his battle boots. He insisted he was ready to carry on fighting Hezbollah "to uproot them from their outposts". But like many Israelis — and others — he was wondering how long that might take.

Any hope that air power alone could destroy the threat posed by Hezbollah had evaporated. The militants, long backed by Syria and Iran, were better armed, better organised and better dug-in than expected.



************

James Wolcott: This afternoon Fox Newser Shepard Smith, stationed on the Lebanese-Israeli border, described the faces and demeanor of the Israeli soldiers returning from incursions into southern Lebanon. He said they looked "stunned" at the ferocity of the Hezbollah fighters. He added that even though the Israeli military knew Hezbollah had had six years to prepare defenses and traps in the southern area, they were unprepared for how lethally sophisticated the tactics were.* (I'm paraphrasing wildly, but I haven't mischaracterized the gist of what he reported.)


*************

Billmon: Here, here and here.

Dariush said...

btw, if anyone's wondering why it took so damn long for American citizens to be evacuated from Lebanon, whereas Britain, Greece, Norway, Sweden, etc evacuated their citizens so quickly, Garance Franke-Ruta has the goods:

WHY IT'S TAKING SO LONG. A reliable source tells me that the reason the United States has been so slow in evacuating its citizens from Lebanon is that the public diplomacy (i.e., P.R.) issues raised by evacuating under Israeli assault are so complicated. Individuals within the State Department, I am told, have been reluctant to create an impression that the Israeli assault on Lebanon is as bad as it is or that civilian U.S. citizens are being threatened by U.S. ally Israel. If a conflict this severe had broken out in, say, Indonesia, the American embassy would have been shut down the next day and its personnel and families rapidly brought to safety. That's how things normally work. (See Laura Rozen on the evacuation from Albania here.) In this case, however, the diplomatic message sent by shutting down the U.S. embassy in the face of Israeli bombing would have contradicted the U.S. government message of support for the Israeli mission against Hezbollah terrorists, which, when added to the general concern within lower-level diplomatic circles about ever creating a Fall of Saigon-style visual for the news media, have led the Americans to be slower than they could have been about getting U.S. citizens out of harm's way.


Justin Raimondo correctly analyzed this disgusting bit of news several days ago:

In my last column, I likened the slowness of the American response to the federal government's hapless efforts to deal with the effects of Hurricane Katrina, a comparison made by many others. However, the Lebanese disaster is much worse than what happened in New Orleans and environs. This isn't incompetence: the U.S. government made a conscious decision to delay the rescue mission to avoid embarrassing the Israelis. The Bush administration can always be counted on to put Israel first – ahead even of the welfare and very lives of American citizens.

Stephanie said...

Mike,

Being the journalist with integrity that you are, do you have any idea if anyone has given a time-table predicting how long they'll wait for a cease-fire before stepping in?

-Sepp said...

Strange that I see very little condemation for Lebanon allowing a terrorist group to operate within it's borders freely nor, any outcry that they are being funded by a foreign government. Iran throws a ton of money to these guys and in the end, the Lebanese are nothing more than pawns to them.

historymike said...

Steph:

My suspicion is that the US is taking its time on demanding a cease-fire to give the Israelis the time they want to "de-fang" Hezbollah.

However, the killing of the UN observers yesterday means that patience in the region has about evaporated.

historymike said...

Sepp:

The Hezbollah situation is a mess for Lebanese moderates.

1. They do not have the military power to forcibly evict Hezbollah.

2. Hezbollah has about 20% of the seats in Parliament, so they have significant political power.

3. Hezbollah is the de facto government in many parts of the south, so there is a lot of public support for them. They fund hospitals, schools, social services, and fill many roles traditionally filled by government. They are more like a shadow state than a true group of terrorists.

While I deplore the rocket attacks against northern Israel, I laugh at the idea that the Israelis are "innocent lambs."

Both sides have engaged in actions that could be accurately described as "terrorist" in nature.

Borg said...

Well, I'll be goldamned Dee! I woulda thought that your "sleeper cell" would have been activated by now!

Didn't expect to see you back so soon!

But let me ask you: Who's the bigger fool? The guy rooting for the Israelis, or the self-confessed anti-Semite who, while superficially supporting Hezbollah, continues to live and pay taxes in a country providing arms to the Israelis?

I mean, if you want Nasrallah's boys to whup up on the Jews so badly, it looks like you'd at least have the common decency to stop paying into a system that provides weaponry to their adversaries.

ADVICE: Move back to Iran (if that is truly where you are from, and I still have my doubts).

As for this Hezbollah Leftist Lovefest we got going on over here, I just have to wonder what these folks are gonna say next time a few thousand Americans are killed in one of those "justifiable" terrorist attacks in NYC, D.C., or wherever the "freedom fighters" of the "shadow state" decide to strike.

I think this is gonna get real interesting over the next few years.

Borg said...

Anyway, from what I've read, Hezbollah hasn't exactly had it made in the shade on this one, either.

Clip

"A senior Hezbollah official said Tuesday the guerrillas did not expect Israel to react with an all-out offensive after the capture of two soldiers, the first acknowledgment by the group that it had miscalculated the consequences of the raid two weeks ago.


Mahmoud Komati, deputy chief of the Hezbollah's political arm, also told The Associated Press in an interview that the Shiite militant group will not lay down arms.

"The truth is — let me say this clearly — we didn't even expect (this) response ... that (Israel) would exploit this operation for this big war against us," said Komati.

He said Hezbollah had expected "the usual, limited response" from Israel after the two soldiers were seized by guerrillas on Israel's side of the border on July 12..."


Proving once again, that, sometimes, an "eye for an eye" is not all that's needed to get the job done.

Dariush said...

Borg: "Well, I'll be goldamned Dee! I woulda thought that your 'sleeper cell' would have been activated by now!"

Smear.


"As for this Hezbollah Leftist Lovefest we got going on over here, I just have to wonder what these folks are gonna say next time a few thousand Americans are killed in one of those 'justifiable' terrorist attacks in NYC, D.C., or wherever the 'freedom fighters' of the 'shadow state' decide to strike."

And Fear.

Put the two together and you've got the combined debating tactics of the pro-genocide, totalitarian, wannabe neokahns who hang out at that online Nuremberg Rally known as Little Green Footballs.

Example:

"What are you a terrorist? Do you side with al-Qaeda? You make me sick you anti-American anti-Semitic puke!

"What's it gonna take for you to wake up, huh? Your town to get hit by a terrorist attack? You better hope it doesn't happen, because if it does, if it does, people are gonna be wanting a little street justice. And they're gonna start with the intellectuals and fifth columnists who rolled our the red carpet for this scum.

"Make of that what you will."



The third technique is not mandatory but is sometimes used for effect. It consists of a veiled threat of a personal nature, or else an allusion (either cryptic or in-your-face) to a glorious post-terror attack "Day of the Rope".

"I think this is gonna get real interesting over the next few years."

Yes, that'll do nicely.


Incidentally, Borg, the thing that's most surprised me is not that the Lebanese have almost to a man, woman and child condemned Israel and praised Hezbollah (although I never thought I'd see the day when a forum run by "Lebanese Forces" and "Guardians of the Cedar" would be filled with anti-Israeli venom). No, what's surprised me, pleasantly, is the attitude of the American public. Despite the fact that the most sophisticated arsenal of propaganda in the history of man is directed square at them, many of them just aren't buying it. Not anymore. Dare I say "never again?" :)

Last time I checked the CNN quick poll, over 750,000 people had voted on whether or not "Israel's actions in Lebanon are justified". 3/4 of a million people, and the difference was six or seven hundred votes. About as close to 50-50 as you can get. Wolf Blitzer must be crushed. :)

CSPAN has also been very illuminating. It's pretty much the only uncensored public forum on the airways, and every morning that I've tuned in the majority of the callers have been squarely against the actions of Israel. With each passing day as reports of the carnage and destruction and mass murder mount, the outrage of the callers has also increased. Today in a period of 40 minutes, I listened to about 20 calls and only two of them were pro-Israel.

One was an Evangelical Christian lady from Winston-Salem, NC (my old digs!) who basically said that "Israel" had existed long before Islam came to be. Of course, the fatally incorrect assumption here is that the Ashkenzim have anything to do with the ancient Israelites. The Mizrahim (not to mention the Palestinians themselves) have a much better claim to the bloodline of the Israelites, but of course, Israel being what it is, the Mizrahi are derided as being "kushi", treated as second-class citizens and shunted into ghettoes.

The other was a lady from San Antonio whose voice was literally quivering with indignation and hatred. Guess what her argument was.

"THEY'RE TRYING TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!"

That's right, a woman after your own heart. She said something about how "we've got all these Lebanese and Egyptians and god only knows what over here. They own groceries, they own markets, they own delis and who the hell knows what else they own..."

Mwahahaha (rubbing hands together, while cackling evilly)

Yes, efendi. Our plan is coming together nicely. Today the Qwik-E-Mart, tomorrow THE WORLD!!! :)

The other callers came from varied personal and political backgrounds. Leftists, ex-military men, America First conservatives, and all sorts of other folks. Some ridiculed the concept of Hezbollah and Hamas being labelled "terrorists", pointing out that in the past two weeks Israel has deliberately caused harm to civilians on a scale that dwarfs the actions of all suicide bomber attacks in Israel put together. Others attacked the monolithically pro-Israel bias of the "American" mass media. And just about all of them felt that our foreign policy establishment (if not our country itself) had been "hijacked." Some of the bolder callers followed through with the details of "how", "by whom" and "in whose interest."

Oh and afterwards, Alberto Gonzales was on. I only listened to the first ten minutes or so before I arrived at my destination. I managed to listen to the first three callers. No butt-kissing, no groveling, no kowtowing. The first two grilled him on the wiretapping of American citizens. The third guy (from Illinois) ripped into him something fierce on the question of illegal immigration and finished off by insulting his ancestry. Something about the dampness of his back. No, I'm not kidding. Normally, I don't care much for ethnic put-downs (with one notable exception). But this was different. I appreciated the blasphemy, the sacrilege in the caller's comment. A high-ranking minion of our Glorious Leader, our Sun King, had been brought down to size. It brought a smile to my face.

People aren't afraid anymore.

So many "traitors" -- so little room in the "camps."


"I think this is gonna get real interesting over the next few years."

Oh, you can bet on it.

Make of that what you will.

Hooda Thunkit said...

LTLOP.
”Geez Mike,

First it was History Kike now History Wahhabi. Next thing you know they will be calling you a Polack or a Pervert. Well we Polacks don't want you and I haven't seen you at the Perv meetings. ;-}”


As a Polack and a certified card-carrying pervert too, I resemble your insinuation that Mike has been missing the meetings; he’s a busy guy.

Besides, if I’m not mistaken, you’ve missed quite a few meetings recently yourself :-]

And now, back to the inevitable Middle-East war.

I still strongly believe that we should sit this one out and let Nature take its course, or forever be mired in a protracted solution, rather than a fairly concise one.

We should let both sides settle this amongst themselves.

Borg said...

"I think this is gonna get real interesting over the next few years."--Bill White (?)

--

Actually, what I was referring to was the impending "End of Days" leading up to 2012.

I expect when the end does come, some folks are gonna be in afor a big surprise...

Make of THAT whatever you will.


--
"CSPAN has also been very illuminating. It's pretty much the only uncensored public forum on the airways, and every morning that I've tuned in the majority of the callers have been squarely against the actions of Israel. With each passing day as reports of the carnage and destruction and mass murder mount, the outrage of the callers has also increased. Today in a period of 40 minutes, I listened to about 20 calls and only two of them were pro-Israel."--Bill White (?)

--

I really wouldn't know, I don't have cable, and the only talk radio I ever listen to besides Hal Turner's Internet Mental Institution is Art Bell. However, I'm gonna go ahead and guess if what you're saying is accurate, Democrats would be a helluva lot better at winning elections.

Sorry, not gonna buy it. Even Pope Benedictus finally came around to agreeing that Israel had a moral right to defend itself against the terrorism of Hezbollah.

You must understand, the vast majority of Americans are not emotionally wired into "activism", camping-out on internet message boards, having large, smelly demonstrations, and making public mockeries of themselves to try and impose their own lopsided, conspiracy-addled worldview on veryone else.

If a poll turns out to favor the fringe worldview, typically, you can bet your ass that poll was slanted by whatever group was responsible for it.

--

"...but of course, Israel being what it is, the Mizrahi are derided as being "kushi", treated as second-class citizens and shunted into ghettoes..."--Bill White (?)

--

What Israel is is a country with ONE MILLION Arab citizens. How the fuck is that "apartheid"?

I did manage to see Jews and Arabs sharing bomb shelters in Northern Israel on MSNBC last night. You'd think those evil Jews would balk at such an arrangement, if they were really the megalithic monsters you always make them out to be.

Does truth ever come out of your mouth?

--

"Make of that what you will."--Bill White (?)

--

Okay, you 're either referring to a post on Overthrow that I commented on (I just noticed Bill had posted and responded to that comment), which makes perfect sense , considering that you and Bill White are , for the most part, ideologiucal comrades.

Or, as I sneakily suspect, you ARE Bill White, which would be something of a disappointment to find out , since I did hold out some hope for your humanity.

But , even if you aren't , tell me: How can you justify paying into and being part of a system that supports that monstrosity of evil, Israel? Why not chuck in the towel, go back to Tehran, and, at the very least, free yourself of any residual guilt (assuming that you, indeed , feel guilt) for being a tax-paying citizen of the "Great Satan"?

But, alas, I am starting to think of you as "Bill White" already.

But, if you're not, prove it.

I will say that your spelling is better.

Not that I really (YAWN!) care, but it would be nice to find out for sure. I do know that you claim to live in D.C., but that could be a lie.

If you are Bill, or know him, please tell him that Marshall De Rais has been credited with the murder of fifty infants in nearly every account of his life I have ever read. Don't know where he gets his information from, but it's probably the sme publisher that printed Did Six Million Really Die?


Long live Israel!

Borg said...

BTW, Dee, why is it all these damn tinfoil-hat websites you link to are always an eyesore?

That "Christus Rex" thing was a serious headache inducer.

Jeezus, warn us next time, okay.

Stephanie said...

borg,

"But let me ask you: Who's the bigger fool? The guy rooting for the Israelis, or the self-confessed anti-Semite who, while superficially supporting Hezbollah, continues to live and pay taxes in a country providing arms to the Israelis?"

Both are fools. You neither have to root for Israel nor any other participants in this grossly unjust conflict. Israel's original invasion of Lebanon was wrong, and the reaction was the creation of Hezbollah. Israel's forcing non-Jews (including Christians, so there goes the whole Judeo-Christian connection) into the position of second-class citizens is also wrong. Israel's forced subjugation of Palestine is wrong. And that's just a start.

However, none of it justifies the actions of the terrorists. Let me repeat: Israel's own acts of evil do NOT justify the acts of evil being done unto Israel. Nor, do the acts of evil being done unto Israel justify, in any manner, shape or form, the acts of evil that Israel performs on her neighbors.

The fool is the one who looks upon evil and calls it good and looks upon good and calls it evil.

And, btw, the rare person who does actually "root" for Hezbollah cannot accurately be called an anti-Semite, since a Semite is a person who supposed to be decended from Shem, and that includes Hebrews (Jews), Arabs (Muslims), Assyrians, Phoenicians, and a bunch of other "tribal" groups in the Middle East.

Stephanie said...

Mike,

I do have trouble seeing how this going to "defang" Hezbollah. It seems more like a good way to make them that much stronger.

Stefan Schmidt said...

What Israel is is a country with ONE MILLION Arab citizens. How the fuck is that "apartheid"?--EB

I can see deductive reasoning is not one of your strong suits….. This might explain why you settled for a BA in religious studies (religion is negatively correlated with IQ)--- a subject where anyone with a double digit IQ can pass.

Tell me, EB, how many Negroes did the apartheid state of South Africa contain?

If a poll turns out to favor the fringe worldview, typically, you can bet your ass that poll was slanted by whatever group was responsible for it.--EB

I believe neo-conservatives are in the fringe. Just about most of America dislikes Bush’s failed presidency—his failed policy on the border, his (and the host of Evangelical cultists that infect our government) attacks on science, and well, Iraq.

I also would wager most Americans would be appalled to learn that we sponsor Israel’s military (and subsidize that state in general). BTW, for all of Israel’s military ‘might’ they are dying like cockroaches in Lebanon.

Did Six Million Really Die?--EB

You tell me—after all, the ‘6 million’ number is an estimate and not a FACT. It is also at the high end of the spectrum which is interesting since middle-level estimates are given for the mass-murders at the behest of the Japanese Militarists, Soviet purges, Mao’s purges, etc.

Also fascinating is your total indifference to Lebanese civilian casualties….

BTW, spell God for me EB. I distinctively remember you spelling God this way: “G-d. ”

Borg said...

"Both are fools. You neither have to root for Israel nor any other participants in this grossly unjust conflict. Israel's original invasion of Lebanon was wrong, and the reaction was the creation of Hezbollah. Israel's forcing non-Jews (including Christians, so there goes the whole Judeo-Christian connection) into the position of second-class citizens is also wrong. Israel's forced subjugation of Palestine is wrong. And that's just a start."--Stephanie

--

I find the above paragraph represents, implicitly, the great moral vacuousness so endemic to the Left.

Let's be honest: The Left can make no moral judgements concerning ANYTHING. Leftists continually compare the apples of civilization with the oranges of barbarism, and because both are fruit, equate one as equally as worthwhile as the other.

Or , to put it a better way, your "Third-World Indentity" politics is a seriously-flawed model by which to judge the present conflict.

Or, perhaps, we could say, "If Person A wants to kill me, my family, and everything else I love and cherish, and his opponent, Person B, does not, the rational individual would, nearly always, favor the struggle of Person B."

The Leftist would argue that , somehow, someway, "Person A, by the very nature of his beingness is every bit as valid as person B in HIS struggle, and, therefore, since to side with one or the other out of selfishness would be unthinkable, I will simply wash my hands of the whole affair".

Or, maybe, " Person B, while we may have no qualms with eachother, has grievously wronged Person A during such and such a given situation; therefore, in the interest of fairness and rightness, I will be all means support Person A, even though to do so is against my own interests, and the interests of society at large."

Well, damn, maybe all that is a weak attempt at illustration, but the paragraph you wrote just disturbed me on so many levels, I couldn't sleep. Didn't do any real writing tonight , either.

Somehow, in the minds of the Hate Israel/ Hate American Left, the moral values and virtues of Osama Bin Laden are no different than those of George Bush. The tactics employed by Hezbollah are no more worthy of condemnation than those of Israel defending herself against unprovoked attacks by...Hezbollah.

I find it really astounding, and very creepy. This inability to make judgements , even when it involves killing, based on the "Moral Rightness" of parties involved (as it relates to the greater social schema of what we like to think of as "civilization")is the absolute defining philosophic crux of the Leftist worldview.

You could no more condemn the beheadings by al-Quaida in Iraq than you could the rockets being fired into Haifa, because to do so would be admitting that some actions , based on the actors involved, are more justifiable than others. And some actions are not justifiable AT ALL.

In the nihilism of Leftist pedagogy, the only winner is the propagandist with the most compelling script.

You know, I have been around quite a crowd throughout my life. I've known ex-cons, bikers, punkers, skinheads, racists,homeless, druggies , rejects of every stripe, and folks you people wouldn't even spit on if you knew them. But out of all of those, I must say, the morally- vacant Leftists on these internet webpages have to be the MOST depressing bunch of folks I have EVER had the displeasure to come across.

And with that, I'm outta here!

P.S. Shmidt, you ceased being interesting a while ago. You're really not worth replying to anymore.

Ciao!

Dariush said...

Borg: "Actually, what I was referring to was the impending "End of Days" leading up to 2012."

Kathleen, sweetie, if you're reading this help me out here.

Does Mayan prophecy have anything to do with the Bible and Christianity?


"Okay, you 're either referring to a post on Overthrow that I commented on (I just noticed Bill had posted and responded to that comment), which makes perfect sense , considering that you and Bill White are , for the most part, ideologiucal comrades."

I've given up trying to talk sense to you on this matter of me being Bill White. If you choose to remain in self-imposed darkness, so be it.

You're right that I did see that post on his blog. It reminded me of how several months ago you made that exact same comment to me, at the tail end of a similar cryptic, veiled threat.

That's why I employed it in the above post.


"Jeezus, warn us next time, okay."

Since you recommend that your ideological opponents indulge in humility rather than arrogance, my recommendation to you is the same.

By repeatedly using the first-person plural, you come off as an unintentionally comedic parody of Queen Victoria.

Now I've put away the sharp knives of ridicule and stifled my laughter, but if you keep at it, I won't be able to make any promises. :)

Dariush said...

PS, "Borg"

Next time, before you fly off the handle like that, you might want to find out a little about the person you're haranguing first.

As I recall, Stephanie is a conservative and a Christian. I had actually had a very interesting exchange with her on this and another blog a few months back about Iraq.

Like I said, smear and fear.

Stephanie said...

Borg,

"I find the above paragraph represents, implicitly, the great moral vacuousness so endemic to the Left."

I hate to break it to you, but I'm not a Leftist. In fact, I'm usually accused, however falsely, of being in-step with the Religious Right. I voted for Bush, and the only reason I do not regret that is because there was not another candidate that could take on Kerry. The reasons I do regret that is because Bush has not secured our borders (we have al-Quaeda operatives coming in from the Mexican border), he favors the rich (which isn't the least bit Christian, unless you follow Pat Robertson and his ilk), and he didn't handle what could have been the post-war Iraq well enough to limit the insurgency. I do not regret the war in Iraq, however.

The difference, of course, is with Iraq we went in with the intention to dispose the government and put it in the hands of the people and we are still not the ones killing civilians whole-sale, the insurgents are.

Whereas Israel is attacking a legitimate Democratically elected nation and targeting civilians wholesale, including those civilians who are the citizens of nations they're allied with -- namely our own. Their actions do not look like a nation defending herself, they look like another expansion move which they've tried before and were repelled...eventually. Israel must give up their pursuit of the Holy Land if they want peace, which obviously they do not.

"Or , to put it a better way, your "Third-World Indentity" politics is a seriously-flawed model by which to judge the present conflict."

I am not aware of the "model" you're referencing. However, it is a trait of American-style democracy to believe that human beings are human beings and should be treated accordingly. And, yes, I object to the fact that we ally ourselves, and actually give money to, many a nations who do not share that mindset, including Israel.

"The Leftist would argue that , somehow, someway, "Person A, by the very nature of his beingness is every bit as valid as person B in HIS struggle, and, therefore, since to side with one or the other out of selfishness would be unthinkable, I will simply wash my hands of the whole affair"."

And Person C would say that both side A and side B are killing people over a stretch of land, that side A owns and side B wants to take illegitimately through conquest, and thus side B should stay on it's own side of the border and side A should stop attacking side B. But, then again, that just might value human life...and from looking at your interests, that's way too much to expect from one such as yourself.

Why call yourself Zionist Crusader? I mean, devil-worshipper seems a whole lot more accurate from the crap you prefer to fill your head with.

"Somehow, in the minds of the Hate Israel/ Hate American Left, the moral values and virtues of Osama Bin Laden are no different than those of George Bush."

Again, let me make this clear:
1) I'm not a Leftist.
2) I've met few Leftists who actually believe that, at least those who don't hang out at Kos.
3) I don't hate Israel. I simply refuse to support Israel. There's a big difference.
4) I love my country and I work hard to make it a better nation for all of us.

"The tactics employed by Hezbollah are no more worthy of condemnation than those of Israel defending herself against unprovoked attacks by...Hezbollah."

Do you know any history? Such as the fact that Hezbollah wasn't formed until after Israel had invaded and was occupying Lebanon? *rolls eyes* Or that Israel wasn't attacked, until after they made it clear that they not only intended to reclaim the Holy Land (which they were not granted by the nations of the world), but also intended to displace all non-Jews, including Christians, from the territory they coveted? Or that coveting a neighbor's land is strictly against the laws of God? Israel is not acting righteously in this manner, and thus they are indefensible in their expandionist pursuits.

"You could no more condemn the beheadings by al-Quaida in Iraq than you could the rockets being fired into Haifa..."

Could and have, on both counts.

"And some actions are not justifiable AT ALL."

Yes. That's my point. Neither Hezbollah nor Israel's actions are at all justifiable. Perhaps you're starting to understand? No, thought not.

If you do bother coming back, then I have to ask: Is the defense with which you bestow upon Israel coming from the same source as your morbid fascination with serial killers?

Stefan Schmidt said...

Whatever, EB. You don’t have to respond if you don’t want to but don’t expect me to ignore such blatantly stupid comments.

Some facts:

Lebanese civilian casualties: 350 to 390 (between 480 to 600 people wounded and 700,000 displaced)

Hezbollah casualties: 27

Israel civilian casualties: 18

Israel military casualties: 33


Source

92.83% of Lebanese casualties are civilians (by conservative estimates) while only 35.29% of Israeli casualties are civilians—who is targeting civilians EB?

I am also glad that you proudly call yourself a Zionist—after all, wasn’t Lehi called a terrorist organization?

What about Irgun? After all, it is a predecessor of the Likud party. Funny that Israel (and Zionism in particular) was founded on terrorism, huh EB?

Remember the King David Hotel Bombing?

No, it doesn’t matter—I shouldn’t expect someone with a double digit IQ to have a more complex world-view beyond black-white, beyond evil-doers and ‘allies’ beyond Israel and those terrorists which are always Muslims.

Long live the intifada!

Ciao.

Stefan Schmidt said...

You know, I should make something clear. I am nowhere near as “anti-Israel” (as I am here) on other forums—your moronic logic and one-dimensional world view just brings it out of me.

I believe Israel has a right to fight and inflict damage on civilians if it has to—after all, the British did just that in acquiring the “USA” from the Indians and the Germans certainly weren’t angels during WW2. However, Israel has to fight its own wars—without our money or our equipment (and without dragging our name through the mud).

And the one-dimensional analysis by propagandists and brain-dead fox news pundits is just ridiculous.

I certainly sympathize with innocent Muslim civilians—just as I sympathize with the innocent Native Americans (during the Spanish and British conquests of America) and the Eastern Europeans (yes, the Jews are included).

historymike said...

Steph:

Borg has trouble recognizing that many on the right question both the war in Iraq and the Israeli destruction of civilian infrastructure in Lebanon.

This is also a strange time for American foreign policy, as in an election year no major GOP or Democratic figures would dare say anything critical of Israel for fear of "losing" the Jewish vote in November.

You have major political figures as diverse as Bush, Dean, H. Clinton, and Frist all holding hands singing the praises of the Israeli military, while already half of Americans believe that the Israeli response is "excessive." This number will continue to climb as the tragedy worsens, and the polls I have seen were taken before the slaughtering of the UN observation workers.

Of course, the idea that there is a unified Jewish voting demographic that marches in lock-step is absurd, and I have several Jewish friends who are aghast at what the Israeli military is doing.

I also know some staunch supporters of Israel who happen to be Jewish. I think that Jews, as a group, are as likely to oppose the Israeli actions as they are to support it.

Stephanie said...

Historymike,

"I also know some staunch supporters of Israel who happen to be Jewish. I think that Jews, as a group, are as likely to oppose the Israeli actions as they are to support it."

That has been my experience as well. And the same goes for Muslims, too (concerning the other side). The mentality that one has to choose a side, or justify the actions of one over another is a simplification that I'm having less and less tolerance for of late.

Stephanie said...

And I still find it absolutely absurd that my comments would affect someone's sleep, when that someone obsesses over serial killers.

Borg said...

My final response:Click here, if you care.

I don't myself, but I had a good time writing this this afternoon.

Ciao!

Kate said...

dariush - you quote the NY Times as a source.

Surely you realize that, finally, they are going to be held on a count of treason?

They're hardly a credible resource. They have exposed more military secrets than any wartime spies in ALL the wars we've been involved with - in this single conflict?

This country would be remiss in its duty to national security if they didn't prosecute this matter to the the fullest.

Dariush said...

Kate: "dariush - you quote the NY Times as a source."

The only Times I linked to above was the London Times. Check the link.


"Surely you realize that, finally, they are going to be held on a count of treason?

"They're hardly a credible resource. They have exposed more military secrets than any wartime spies in ALL the wars we've been involved with - in this single conflict?"


Kate, me and you haven't exactly seen eye to eye on a whole number of issues. Nevertheless, I've always thought you to be intelligent and reasonable.

In that spirit then I ask you, nay beg you to tell me that this post of yours was a joke, a put on, a clever parody... anything but a serious reflection of your actual views.

Please, Kate. Say it ain't so.

Dariush said...

LOL! Borg's "political" blog is friggin' hilarious. Full of wild-eyed hysterical rantings about all those he perceieves as "traitors" and "enemies". He must still be wiping from the spittle from his monitor.

Antiwar.com is now a "stealth nazi" site according to this sorry excuse for a man.

And he's picked up his toys, left the sandbox and told him mommy on those who post here.

Borg: "I've made a solemn oath that, from now on, I will NEVER reply to Moonbats on their own forums. Uh-uh. Not gonna do it. No way, Jose."

Translation: He'll be back here, righteously spitting bile and venom at all those who hate "America" in two, three days tops.

Dariush said...

God, the rantings and ravings of a true fanatic.

If you don't slaver and drool at the thought of hundreds of murdered Lebanese civlians, if you don't cheerlead the destruction of Lebanon then you desire the death of democracy.

What a demented psychopath.

Btw "Borg", in case you're reading this, this picture isn't what you proclaim it to be.

There's a whole series of pictures prior to this one which show events as they happen.

This picture was taken a few years ago in one of the poor neighbourhoods of South Tehran. In the pictures which precede this one you can see an older gentleman taking money from onlookers and then instructing the boy to lay his arm down behind the tire.

This was some sort of freakshow/carnival act created by some hucksters.

No one's arms get crushed in Iran for stealing a loaf of bread, you ignorant fucking moron.

Stefan Schmidt said...

Only half-witted, overstuffed, pampered, and self-righteous Americans, with too much frickin' free time on their hands, could be convinced to pour out into the streets, en masse, to support the terror-wielding Jihadis of Hizbollah. Their logic (if I can call it that) is lost on me:--EB, from his blog

Well EB, I think logic in general is lost on you.

Fuck 'em all. Hate Left and Hate Right, Islamic Fascism, Bleeding Hearts (that only bleed for those who, continually, spill blood), and all the rest of the loony "revolution chic" cult of "cutting-edge politickal" demonstration.

They're worse than traitors. They're far more pathetic.

They're masochists.

They're suicidal...

...And they NEVER, EVER SHUT-UP.
--EB

Folks, this guy is a substitute teacher!

Useful Idiots. You have no idea of how lucky each and every one of you are to live in this country where the Policidad are not going to line you up against a wall with a blindfold every time you open your latte-swilling sewer about something that made you upset on CNN. Don't like the President? Too fuckin' bad. You think you could do any better if someone gave you the opportunity to do HIS job for a day?--EB

Now now EB, you really shouldn’t be calling anyone an “Idiot.”

I am glad that you are an admirer of totalitarian regimes---I just am not sure how this admiration ‘fits’ with your goal of stopping moonbats drunk on Kool-Aid and Islamo-fascists from ‘killing’ our democracy. I digress—I understand that logic is not one of your *strong* areas.

Lady, if you added up the total body count of every serial killer in America in the last century, it would still be dwarfed by the mega-murders resulting from Islamic terrorism. But I digress.--EB, the substitute teacher

What is Israel’s body count? I hear over 600 Lebanese CIVILIANS and 150 Palestinian CIVILIANS just in this war.

Seriously EB, I hope you aren’t brainwashing your pupils with this tripe.

Stephanie said...

Okay, Stefan, I'm officially stumped. EB? Where did that come from? I'm assuming you're referencing borg, but why EB?

And yeah, Dariush, he'll be back. He's already come back once after saying he's gone.

Stephanie said...

Well, I must admit, borg got one thing right, I do like lattes, preferably iced, but swilling? C'mon, I'm on a fixed income. I can't afford to swill lattes, no matter how much that might help me get all my homework, paperwork, house work, writing, and living done on time.

However, I still fail to see how idolizing serial killers is "okay" within any contemporary moral or ethical system. I've known goth kids with better taste than that.

Besides, I'll say it again:
I do NOT support terrorists.

I do wonder why that's such a difficult sentence for borg to parse. Substitute teacher, you say? Hmm. No wonder our educational system is in such shambles.

Stephanie said...

As for you, borg, what is the point of a blog that doesn't accept comments? Really? Just writing to quiet the voices in your head?

Stefan Schmidt said...

Stephanie,

I met “Borg” on a different blog several months ago where he went by the handle of “EB.”

I guess old habits die hard.

Kate said...

dariush it is so. When one publishes military intelligence such as the Times has done - there is a price to be paid.

I'm all for freedom of the press - but we've established long ago that freedom of speech does not extend to military intel, national secrets or screaming fire in a crowded theater.

The people who live in the U.S. have some rights too. Not just those who own newspapers. And one of those rights is the reasonable expectation that our national intelligence organizations will be able to keep us safe. And that cannot happen when everything they do is splashed over the front of a newspaper.

historymike said...

Yes, I read Borg's rant fest. While we agree on a few issues, his steadfast support for Bush and the neo-khans is disappointing.

He also engages in too much of that partisan mudslinging (especially the demonization of those with whom he disagrees, using terms like "Moonbats") that adds nothing to a civil discussion of the issues.

But - he is always welcome here.

historymike said...

Steph:

"EB" stands for "Everets Brevard" (sp.?), a pen name that Borg used on Nikki's Nest, an anti-racist site.

historymike said...

As far as the "Dariush is really the NSM's Bill White" argument, that has long ago been dismissed.

It is physically impossible for this to be the case, as Dariush has posted here at a time when Bill White also posted, and the IP addresses were 200 miles apart.

Besides, Dariush and Bill White do not agree on much, except possibly Bill's love affair with Iranian nationalism, which he mistakes for Iranian Nazism.

Bill - it's a small "n," OK?

historymike said...

Kate:

I disagree, respectfully, about the NYT being treasonous.

In fact, the Bush administraton's attempts to restrict the press remind me of the Federalists and the Alien and Sedition Acts in 1798.

Here's more on the Acts and the attempts to equate a free press with "treason."

Kate said...

Mike - I'm basing this on two incidents. The Times reported that our intel services had phone records.

Those same phone records are purchased by and used by commerial businesses for prospecting. That's been going on for years. As such, it posed no threat to the public good and once again - gave the whole world info on what our services were doing.

The other thing that made me upset was this: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html?ei=5090&en=e32072d786623ac1&ex=1292389200&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print

Is this information that has already been available for commerical purposes? Yes.

Was this really news? Debatable.

Are we safer as a result of this reporting? No.
And then this (this is the NY Times defense against their having committed treason): http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/01/opinion/01keller.html?ex=1154232000&en=4b680c718d40934b&ei=5070

It isn't acceptable to publish military intelligence in a country that is at war - that helps their enemy.

And that's why I used the word treason. I think it puts us all at great risk.

Stefan Schmidt said...

Mike:


Unfortunately, EB’s reactionary neo-conservatism makes him rather typical—no, what makes EB “special” are some rather glaring contradictions.

EB wants to preserve our “democracy” by penalizing certain people for holding what he considers “seditious” thoughts---he actively cheered at David Irving’s imprisonment and when forced to elaborate he bluntly stated that a “democracy” has a right to imprison/exile people with certain opinions considered “immoral” or “dangerous.”

EB also supported the comments of Abe Foxman—the comments where Abe Foxman stated the ‘Holocaust” was unique among other genocidal campaigns simply because Jews are God’s chosen and an attempt on Jews is an attack against God. EB has stated numerous times that HE believes that Jews are God’s chosen—an opinion that is very similar to CI where the members/adherents believe Caucasians are God’s chosen.

EB supports Zionism—which is a Jewish Nationalistic movement. He however does not support any other Nationalistic movement. Not White Nationalism, German Nationalism, Muslim Nationalism—what have you.

Somehow, EB is thought of as an ‘anti-racist’ on that blog. I am at a loss---since when is fanatic Jewish racialism “anti-racist?”

Dariush said...

Stefan's last post sums up "the EB situation" rather nicely.

Mike: "Besides, Dariush and Bill White do not agree on much, except possibly Bill's love affair with Iranian nationalism, which he mistakes for Iranian Nazism."

Iranian nazism is not based on Iranian nationalism so much as it is on Persian racism and Persian ethnic chauvinism -- a disease which, unfortunately has cut a very wide swath through the Persian bourgeois intellectual class.

Now, most of these fine fellows find their political home in the monarchist movement (the movement to restore the Pahlavi dynasty to the Peacock Throne). For some, though, that's not enough and they go full tilt "nazi".

Now while the monarchists/Persian supremacists feel themselves to be "the superior Aryan race", they only feel this way in relation to the other people of the Middle East, Central Asia and South Asia. At the drop of a dime, they are bound to go off on how Turks are poofters, Arabs are barbaric savages, Africans are subhuman, Afghans are illiterate, uncultured, uncivilized pack animals and manual laborers and Indians and Pakistanis are burnt black and smell like shit.

But, and this is important, as much as the monarchists/Persian supremacists feel themselves to be the representatives of "the Master Race" in the Middle East, they also prostrate and supplicate themselves before zionists and any and all Westerners. So it's a weird mixture of an inferiority complex and self-abnegation coupled with feelings of racial superiority.

The difference with the Iranian nazis is that, while also feeling themselves superior to neighbouring people and to ethnic/racial minorities in Iran, they don't have an inferiority complex and need for approval when it comes to Westerners and Zionists.

Also both the monarchists and the nazis hate Islam and Muslims more than EB ever could. Most of them have adopted a kind of phony Zoroastrianism as their religion. Phony because they are "Zoroastrian" only in the sense that the Klan is "Christian."

EB, on his political blog, links approvingly to a perfect example of what I'm talking about when it comes to Persian monarchists. I've come across that guy before on other blogs (both Persian and English) and he very much hates Arabs, Turks, Afghans, Pakistanis and Africans, but turns into a court eunuch when it comes to dealing with Zionists and Westerners. He even believes that ancient Iranian antiquities and relics should be moved, in whole, to London or New York.

Stephanie said...

Mike & Stefan,

Thank you for the clarification.

Stefan Schmidt said...

Israel has just announced that it will not demand the disarmament of Hezbollah as a precondition for a cease fire.

Israel, with all of its 21st century and American tax dollars in the billions couldn’t defeat a resistance movement using ww2 era Soviet technology (not to mention the funding of Hezbollah is minuscule in comparison to that of Israel).

But this could have been predicted—after all, Israel had 18 years to destroy a fledgling group that would later be called Hezbollah.

Somewhere in the Midwest, EB is popping anti-acids to soothe his stomach ulcer (well, antibiotics is technically more appropriate for a stomach ulcer but I digress).