Feb 15, 2008

On NIU, Steven Kazmierczak, and Mass Murder

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Emergency personnel move an injured person out of Neptune Hall, a residence hall at Northern Illinois University; photo courtesy AP

I understand how depressed persons might want to take their own lives. I also understand how enraged people might want to target someone who has brought them harm or pain.

But I have never been able to comprehend how a person like Steven Kazmierczak - the gunman in the Northern Illinois University shooting - can target innocent bystanders in his violent response to his life circumstances.

Kazmierczak was an award-winning graduate student at the School of Social Work at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. He was vice-president of the NIU Academic Criminal Justice Association in 2005, and he also contributed to an article on self-injury in prisons. This is hardly the stereotype of the loner gunman, and yet Kazmierczak's violent spree left seven people dead and another 15 injured.

The thought of such violence sickens me, and I struggle to come to terms with the mindset of someone who could bring so much pain and death to so many random people. There have been low points in my life when I questioned the merits of living, and I can recall several occasions where my rage at those who brought harm to my family members led to some violent thoughts. Of course, there is a tremendous difference between the fleeting moments of despair I have experienced and a person who actually carries out an act of suicide or violent revenge, but at least there is some rational process for these types of behaviors that I can understand.

At no point, though - even during my darkest hours - has the thought entered my head to harm innocent people, and I just cannot fathom how a person like Steven Kazmierczak can arrive at the conclusion that the optimal way to end his pain is by killing innocent students on a college campus.

Then again, perhaps my attempt to find a rational basis for mass murder is itself an exercise in futility. There may not be a logical progression in the thoughts that go through the mind of someone like Kazmierczak, despite the seemingly cold calculation and planning that preceded his minutes of bloody horror on the campus of NIU.

So I sit at my desk this morning, shocked and saddened at the senseless violence that occurred at a campus similar to others at which I have taught and studied, and I feel frustrated at my inability to understand why these incidents keep happening.

And I thank God that this was not my time to die.

236 comments:

1 – 200 of 236   Newer›   Newest»
Greg M. said...

I bet this creep could have been stopped by a .38 slug if students could carry weapons to defend themselves on campus. It's called the 2nd amendment people but the gubbamint doesn't want you to know your rights. Maybe he still would have fired off some rounds but you can bet the death count would be lower if thirty people in that room were packing heat.

Anonymous said...

You're a dumbass, Greg. More guns=more death.

Anonymous said...

I was in the Von Maur store in Omaha when a gunman went loose and started shooting at those around me.

Sorry Greg, but when stuff like that goes down, you don't suddenly become Rambo. You just hope the hell you make it out alive.

Anonymous said...

Greg, you're an ass...guns should be made harder to obtain for this reason. I'm not against protecting your home, but it should be illegal to carry anywhere, unless you're a cop!

Anonymous said...

I am still freaked out about this. Is there something within the human brain that would allow a person to just shoot at random? I fail to see the logic in this. maybe he wanted to leave us all wondering....why? No one deserves this. no one.

Jacob C.

Greg m is a dooshbag said...

Greg, you are about as stupid as the fag gunman. just as last dude says, each time someone pisses someone off, they would shut someone dead.

More guns=more death. People need cooldown time, if they had a gun in their pocket, there would be shootings every second of the day in every school.

Greg, go shoot yourself fag.

Anonymous said...

how did you get the name of the shooter before major news broadcasters announced it live?

Anonymous said...

Raise the price on ammo. If it is too expensive to buy the ammo, the gun is useless.

Guns do not kill, people holding the guns do.

Anonymous said...

Greg M you have it right on the money! After I watched the update of the NIU shooting, CNN had a news clip of an elderly man who was being beaten and robbed, and guess what, he pulled a small .38 out of his pocket and started shooting at the scabs and hit one as they ran off, his only regret.. he didn't have more ammo in his pocket. You are not a dumbass... more guns does NOT mean more death. People who honestly believe that... IGNORANT to life!

Shannon said...

you know what greg-- you are an idiot, there would be a lot more violence at NIU than there already is if people were allowed to carry guns because of idiots like you.

you probably would have been hitting the ground pissing yourself while the gun went off in your pocket if you were in the situation that my friends and peers at NIU were in.

If thirty people in that room were "packing heat" what makes you think they know how to shoot those things and more people would be injured or dead.

I was there, picking up my panicking friends from buildings where they were hiding from the gunman. and i was suppose to be in cole for class, think about waht you say before you say it.

Anonymous said...

Greg M youre an idiot. Your arguement is the same as "guns dont kill people, people kill people". Gun laws should make it harder to own a gun. And at the very least a mental test should be required to purchase a gun. If you're declared mentally unstable, no gun for you.

Anonymous said...

Greg you're an idiot and i can't even comment on your ridiculous statement....to the victims and families my thoughts and prayers go out to you....I was born and raised in Dekalb and although i never attented NIU this university is a part of my community and i can't tell you how heavy my heart is....it sounds so cliche but you don't ever think this can happen in your town and i'm in just complete shock that this has happened....Huskie family my message to you "Stay strong, this community is here for you and keep you in our thoughts, God Bless!!"

Anonymous said...

"it should be illegal to carry anywhere, unless you're a cop!
"

because mass murderers care about breaking the law for gun posession.

Get your head out of your ass.

pjb1015 said...

Greg,

I concur, I was on the campus in DuSable hall 2 buildings over, and I had to duck out and head to graham and gable halls, and if i was caught by the gunman, i would have been screwed, no doubt, certainly my mindset has changed on conceal and carry

jamie said...

greg, logic like that is the exact reason guns should be harder to obtain.

Vanessa Vy said...

Please, everyone should learn how to shoot guns safely and carry them. I agree Greg, at least give teachers guns.

Anonymous said...

YOU GUYS are sad! Do you honestly think that if you ban guns that no criminal will have them. Try to wedge this in your narrow minds.... Criminals would be less likely to pull a gun to rob a store if he knew laws let everyone carry guns, he only pulls out his gun because he thinks he's the only one with one! Duhhhh. Pretty simple to me. You anti-gun people just hide behind us who are Americans and believe in the Amendments! Just as I should be able to carry, I believe the wimpy people should have the right to not carry. It's AMERICA.

Chris Martin said...

right on GREG the rest of you guys are ...well let's just say less than educated. Bullets kill people not guns. If everyone can recall our country was founded on principals by great men that believed in owning and carrying guns, not only for protection but eating as well. I do not claim to know why these patterns keep emerging, but I suggest being prepared to defend yourself. Stay vigilant. RIP to those lost yesterday...except "the gunman"

wzk said...

I am the parent of an NIU student. Fortunately, he was far away from Cole Hall when the incident occurred. I am GRATEFUL that there were not six or eight or ten armed students jumping up and returning fire. Think about it -- the first person returns fire . . . to the others, is he a hero, or a co-conspirator" Quick now, you only have 1/2 second to figure it out. Another person starts shooting -- same question again, and now you've got bullets flying from THREE directions. Now throw a few more shooters into the mix. And now you've got 120 students trying to escape from not just a single threat, but what might be a half-dozen threats, and trying to dodge bullets flying in all directions.
I'm not an anti-gun nut. You like target shooting? Fine, transport your unloaded gun in a locked case to the target range. You like hunting... Fine, keep your unloaded gun in a locked case and take it out hunting with you. You want a gun in your house for "protection"? That's your choice to make -- just keep the damned thing away from me, and out of the public space.
I don't know the ultimate answer, but I DO know that it isn't "more guns".

David Gaines said...

(1) Imagine what life would be like in this country with hundreds of thousands of teenagers in colleges carrying concealed weapons to classrooms.

(2) This shooting took place literally within a few seconds. Even if everyone in the room were carrying a gun, it would have been over before anyone could have reacted, pulled out the weapon, aimed, and fired. And imagine what would have happened with a room full of people with little or no experience with firearms and full of terror all firing guns wildly . That would be a preferable outcome? That's what people want our college classrooms to be like? Who would want to teach in an environment that could potentially turn into that?

Do ultra-conservative people who are obsessed with firearms stop and think before they make their not-very-carefully-considered suggestions, or do they just fire away, so to speak?

Anonymous said...

historymike, it seems you obained or speculated the name of the shooter before major news broadcasters announced his name. did you have certain confirmation beforehand somehow?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous you are the only idiot here. And a naive idiot at that. Do you really believe that gun legislation keeps guns away from criminals and those that are hell bent on commiting criminal acts? Of course not! The sole result of gun laws has been to keep innocent bystanders defenseless and their families mourning their senseless loss. Grow up get out into the real world and smell the freakin coffee!!!

Thinking about NIU at VT said...

I work at Virginia Tech...I kinda have to agree with Greg on this point. While it's true that most people would be too terrified to respond, it's not impossible that someone would have been able to draw and fire back. There was the case of that church shooting in Colorado, where one of the parishioners (a woman, even!) shot back and took the guy down. The shooter didn't hurt any more people after that, except himself. That shooting would likely have been much worse if she hadn't been there. You don't have to be 'Rambo'.

The number of random shootings is truly frightening. I wish we could somehow figure out why.

historymike said...

(ignoring for the moment the concealed carry debate)

As for the name of the shooter, it took a little digging, but there were enough clues in the mainstream media to figure it out.

Most of the major media outlets knew the name but were sitting on it until the NIU police gave them the OK. As a bloger I have the freedom to pursue the truth without having to negotiate with police about what I can print.

NIU still had pages up with details about Kazmierczak, but they have now yanked them. ou can still get the Google caches, though.

Anyways, it looks like I only beat the AP by an hour or two in releasing his name.

historymike said...

Err, that would be "blogger."

Anonymous said...

While I don't agree with Greg, the suggestion that the ability to carry a weapon legally has anything to do with a murder rate is not based in fact. Texas passed the concealed handgun in 1995 and had its murder rate decrease since then. Certainly don't think that the venom towards his POV is warranted.

Anonymous said...

Guns don't make people do things like this. Zoloft does.

Anonymous said...

I don't know what the answer is either, but my sister works in a school and I want her protected. I don't know if that means guns, tazers, I have no idea. But school administrations have to start thinking a little more about how to protect students and teachers.

ag said...

The question posed at the end of the article as to why this keeps happening is partly addressed (albeit, unintentionally) by greg's naive response. Firstly, the ease of availability of firearms in the U.S. Secondly, the glorified machismo of a society that believes in a moral high ground. Just as the killer probably held some deranged motive driven by vengence, so it is mirrored by the 'you threaten me i shoot you' attitude of people like greg. America needs to re-embrace the teachings of non-violence from some of its wonderful teachers such as Martin Luther King jr. As an individual our responsibilities lies in a pro-active search for peace.

Lennie said...

Greg, you are correct. If someone had been carrying a gun, they could have stopped this with much less bloodshed. Our Constitution allows us the freedom to own guns. Any attempt to limit that limits the freedoms and rights we have a citizen of this great country. Mandatory gun classes would be fine, but not limiting gun ownership. Criminals don't care about laws and they'll buy guns anyway. Stop trying to take the guns away from law abiding citizens.

Anonymous said...

The seems at this piont that the gunman in this case would have passed a mental evaluation. Most such gunmans (both the VT and Omaha shooter, I have no stats)had had contact with mental health services which failed them and society and not for lack of funding. We ought to be able to fix this problem rather than remaining mired in the constitutional issue. When you say "only police should have guns", do you mean Drew Peterson?

Anonymous said...

Greg, I stand behind you 100%. There are a lot of people that would still choose not to carry even if it were legal, but those that would could protect themselves and others around them. Background checks, waiting-periods, and shooting lessons! You're not going to pull a gun on somebody when you don't know who else has one. Law-abiding people don't commit murder, psychotic bastards that can't be stopped do!

Dave said...

To all those idiots who think Greg is an idiot: Please pull your cranial cavity out of your anal cavity long enough to look at the data. The use of guns for illegal violence by properly licensed carriers is incredibly lower than among non-licensed.

Also, Illinois already has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. The only reason the killing ended at NIU was that the killer killed himself. The cops evidently got there within *30 SECONDS* of getting a call. It was all over by then.

Yup, yup, yup, stricter gun laws would sure have worked here, wouldn't it?

Tell you what, all you folks that want stricter gun control laws, how about you are required to wear a large sign saying "Unarmed and unwilling to resist."? That way you'd be equivalent to innocent students sitting in a classroom.

Robert said...

Wow. It is sorta crazy how the initial reaction following these events is to blame gun control laws or the lack there of. In reality, murder has very little to do with the weapon and everything to do with how people treat each other. Just remember, guns are banned in the City of Chicago (except for police) and it has had NO impact on the murder rate there. In reality, violence and murder are things that have existed and will always exist.

Anonymous said...

historymike, i've followed the news coverage since it started and i didn't get any indication of a name or i would have been searching for info as well. can you provide an example of such an indication?

Jack said...

anyone here who thinks this is why we should make guns harder to obtain is just plain ignorant. making guns harder to obtain only hurts the law abiding.

criminals love gun control. NIU as every college is a gun free zone. Steve knew there would be no chance someone would shoot back when he walked into that hall.

I'm not advocating everyone be allowed to carry, but if we made it similar to driving. You must be a certain age, take a course, and obtain a license.

I've never used a gun, and I'm pretty liberal on most issues, but I've been in a situation before where I felt my life was in jeopardy and all I could think of was "I wish I had a way to protect myself."

I'm sure there are some students at NIU who thought the same thing when the bullets started firing.

Remember, when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away.

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, everything has a consequence. The legal purchase of guns in USA can help people to protect their lives by threatening or killing others that want to cause harm but the legal purchase of guns also motivate disturbed minds to kill. You America choose what is best for you.
It’s crazy though real crazy you people….you guys have everything compared to millions of other people in third world countries. Those guys from Colorado, that guy from Virginia Tech, this freaking guy from NIU all of them have education and certainly money …. Yes, people can be mean sometime make bad jokes about you, make you feel alone….but those are small problems in life. Here in Ecuador people starve, some people don’t have education, there is a lot of corruption, lots of poverty, bad health system...REAL PROBLEMS!! And you don’t see young people pulling upt their guns and killing innocents……what is going on with you guys??

wells said...

As the old wise tale goes, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

Guns make it easier to get the "job" done, and if someone is this determined to kill, they will obtain a gun without question. We all live in a mindset of fear, especially in this dismantling "Empire" of America, and to preach the 2nd amendment merely perpetuates this fearful mindset. If you go into a situation packing heat, odd are you will end up using it...and what is that insane statistic that states over 60% of gunshot wounds were inflicted by the owner's weapon....Greg I must say you are an idiot, or just waking up on the wrong side of your newspaper....What is the most fucked up thing about all this for me is it seems the latest trends of violence in academic settings are in my age group. It seems to be plaguing this generation "Y"...following us to the grave...Is it the general social apathy driving these massacres?
Maybe we are the futile generation "WHY"...something needs to change.

Anonymous said...

All you enlightened folks exercising your first amendment rights, why are you so quick to restrict the constitutional right to carry a gun?
How about we restrict the 1st amendment right of idiots that don't know what the hell they are talking about?
For all you lemmings, the founding fathers thought so much about the right to bear arms to protect ourselves, that their was a serious debate about making it the 1st amendment.
Don't all you brilliant anti-guns folks realize it's already illegal to walk into a classroom and open fire? How is one more law going to prevent psychos from going off?

Anonymous said...

When will Americans learn that the wild west days are done and gone? NO ONE needs the RIGHT to carry a gun. MORE GUNS is not the answer; more openess to recognizing and treating mental illness is. Americans need to DEMAND more money put into and accessibility to physical and mental health care, not a demand to carry more guns.

Dave said...

"I don't know the ultimate answer, but I DO know that it isn't "more guns"."

Well, then, I guess there *IS* no answer. Just send your kids off and let them die.

The above example of idiocy is part of the problem. The answer is not simply "more guns" the answer is enough guns in properly trained hands. Try to grasp the subtle differences there. I know it's difficult for Lefties to use facts, logic, evidence and such as opposed to 'feelings' and 'knowing' but do give it a try.

Anonymous said...

My heart and prayers go out to the NIU community. The discussion over the conceal and carry law is laughable at best. It certainly has not stopped crime anywhere else in this country. I'm all for the right to bear arms but it's too bad some of you 2nd amendment nuts don't have the same passion for the first amendment which has been gutted by the Bush Administration and the right-wing whackos. Maybe then I would respect your opinion a bit more. God Bless the souls of those who were lost in this tragic event.

Anonymous said...

Wake up everyone... We are in a time of hopelessness. The world is on the verge of experiencing another open holy war without boundaries, as well as another cold war between the super powers. We are on our third generation of children having children and single parent families without fathers. No one is required to conform to any "norm" leaving everyone to tolerate one anothers differences no matter what the cost to society.

Anonymous said...

historymike, you said that you had viewed NIU pages that had information about the kazmierczak before they yanked them. what kind of information did they take down? any details are appreciated, as well as any tips on where to start searching.

Anonymous said...

Sad day in America when only criminals can carry guns and lawful citizens who want to protect themselves can't. It is also very sad to see so many show so little respect for the 2nd Amendment. So many have made the ultimate sacrifice defending this right as well as others. Then these anti gun tards shame their sacrifice. So very sad.

Anonymous said...

I am with you Greg, all these idiot liberals have no idea. I am from DeKalb, IL and still live there and if that stupid bitch of a mayor Daley in Chicago was not in office then maybe illinois could have a conceal and carry law. All these people dont realize that the states that do have it have way less crime. If someone wants a gun bad enough and wants to kill someone then they are gonna get it and do it so why do you take that right away from the people who are honest and want to protect their families. I mean really, are you gonna mess with someone who has a 357 holstered on his side. If I had a son or daughter that went to college then i would want them to carry a gun to maybe defend themselves from all these wacked out people who go shooting up schools. Do all of you think that the brothers in the ghetto have the proper paperwork to carry a gun. NO, IF THEY WANT A GUN THEN THEY ARE GONNA GET ONE, SO WHY CANT I, AN HONEST CITIZEN DO IT LEGALLY TO PROTECT MYSELF?

Jake said...

I don't really know what to say on how stupid this argument is... Whether people would have had guns or not is not the issue. The issue is that 7 people are now dead and we have no reason why... While people are arguing about whether we should carry guns or not, it is not going to bring loved ones back. The law does state that you can carry a gun if you have a card and license to carry it. Guns though have absolutely no place on a school campus. If people would have had gun's in that room MANY more people would have died. Panic + Deadly weapons = Mass Casualties. As far as "Greg" the gun happy has stated, (rather poorly by the way), I do not believe that anyone in that classroom would have been able to just shoot that guy down... He had is weapons our and if he would have seen anyone else pull one out, he would have shot them too. And by the way, if you are trying to get your point across, please try to use actual words to not sound like and uneducated ghetto trash. Words like "gubbamint" make you sound extremely stupid. Are you even a student at NIU or some uneducated fool who thinks that "The Man" is trying to get him "Down" from the GOVERNMENT?!

Jake

Anonymous said...

if more guns = more death, why so states with CC laws have less violent crime than those without?

Anonymous said...

Greg is right on. Couple of points:

1. In almost every state that has shall issue carry laws, it is required that the person getting the license PROVE proficiency with the weapon. Only Alaska and Vermont allow concealed carry without having to get some form of license. (Of course, those states aren't turning into the wild west either like all the anti-gun nuts say will happen)

2. Not everyone will choose to carry an weapon. Most simply won't. But those people will benefit from the few that choose to go through all the background requirements to carry a gun. So this notion that everyone will jump up and start shooting each other is simply ridiculous.

3. To say that people are unable to tell the difference between someone who is randomly killing people and those who are shooting back at that criminal is simply ridiculous. It is very easy to tell the difference, mostly that all the bullets are flying at the original shooter.

4. Many of our college campuses are filled with students who had prior military experience. Why is it that we have no problem handing a fully automatic firearm to an 18 year old in combat and trust that they will use it appropriately, yet we don't think those same people can exercise that judgment when they are 22 years old and have shown the ability to handle a firearm and get licensed. Anti-gun people are just completely irrational and let emotions rule their thoughts instead of reason.

Dave said...

And as I'm writing, more idiocy is posted.

"If you go into a situation packing heat, odd are you will end up using it...and what is that insane statistic that states over 60% of gunshot wounds were inflicted by the owner's weapon...."

The first part is factually totally incorrect. CHECK THE FREAKIN' DATA!! (It's available online from the FBI.) People who are *LEGALLY* permitted to carry weapons *RARELY* do more than 'brandish' them. I.e., they display the weapon without using it. The brandishing results in conviction for improper use LESS THAN 1% of the time. People who LEGALLY carry weapons DON'T use them to kill or even wound.

And that idiot 60% figure includes *SUICIDES* moron. Guess what. In both Japan and Sweden, which both have *EXTREMELY* strict gun control laws, the suicide rate is even higher than ours, they just don't use guns.

For Pete's sake, try to take a gander at reality now and then. It's painful, but useful.

Anonymous said...

Dear NIU students,

I am an NIU alum (class of 1990) and I'm so deeply saddened for everyone today. I live far away from Illinois but of course news travels globally instantly. I was having a salad in Honolulu yesterday at a sandwich bar and the TV was on (I don't own a TV in my house) and sure enough CNN was carrying a live video feed from WLS-TV in Chicago. Once I realized that happened I just about passed out. I had a Fortran class in Cole Hall in the late 1980s. At that time, we never ever had to worry, as students, about someone opening up with guns on campus (our biggest worries were making it through final exams). I feel terrible that students today have less peace of mind than students of 15 years ago. Please accept my condolences.

-B

pjb1015 said...

To the people that are commenting, I was there on campus, and I feared for my life, I had no clue where this guy was other than he did this in Cole, and less than 1500 feet away, if I came in contact with the gunman I would have been SOL, plain and simple

Tim said...

Unfortunately, public shootings have become a trend that is gaining popularity with people who are obviously mentally ill. The real question is what should we do to prevent future occurances? Should we have armed guards in classrooms, metal detectors, be allowed to arm ourselves (as Greg suggests)? Greg, I don't think your comments are bad because I'm sure the families of shooting victims (NIU, Virginia Tech) may be on your side on that one but they are also said out of a justifiable anger. The solution you present will cause more problems than it will help the situation. The real problem is that it can't be forseen. The motives for all the mass killings in the past year have been so different and the only common denominator is that these people needed some form of attention and didn't get it so they got attention by doing this. In any event, I wish I could share a smart solution to this problem but the scariest part about it is that I can't think of one. It's very frustrating. I pray for the victims and their families.

wells said...

The founding fathers understood the power of militia..essentially that is why America won their independence..that was hundreds of years ago. Japan did not invade the homeland of America because they knew every crazy bastard civilian with a gun would ban together and the rising sun would be extinguished..this was WWII.......... Times change. This is 2008...We are a bloody nation-always have been...but its time we become a more conscious nation..Our primitive ways will be the end of us unless we step it up a notch mentally....What else do we have to conquer or defend, besides our own minds?

Anonymous said...

As a student in the classroom at the time of the shooting and as a close friend of one of the too many lost victims, I can honestly say that while this was occuring no individual could have been thinking about returning fire to possibly help anyone. Everyone is thinking about the friend next to them and hoping that the person that you know across the aisle is going to meet up with you just outside. Then you think, how many people am I going to have to climb over just to save myself. Even if any of you were carrying a weapon, once your friend or relative goes down in a bloody pool, you don't think to stand up and confront it... you think to cover the person that you care about that was just injured and hope that you can do something to help them so they live.

No one can possibly imagine the horror that comes with it when such a thing occurs. None of you can identify with our families and our group of friends.

Whether you think that it could have been stopped by someone in the class at the time or whether you think that it would have been different should you have been there, please be considerate of those who were actually affected by this event and respect that your comments are seen by us that were personally touched by it and that it is heartbreaking to see any posts that blame anyone other than the killer.

Jake said...

I don't really know what to say on how stupid this argument is... Whether people would have had guns or not is not the issue. The issue is that 7 people are now dead and we have no reason why... While people are arguing about whether we should carry guns or not, it is not going to bring loved ones back. The law does state that you can carry a gun if you have a card and license to carry it. Guns though have absolutely no place on a school campus. If people would have had gun's in that room MANY more people would have died. Panic + Deadly weapons = Mass Casualties. As far as "Greg" the gun happy has stated, (rather poorly by the way), I do not believe that anyone in that classroom would have been able to just shoot that guy down... He had is weapons our and if he would have seen anyone else pull one out, he would have shot them too. And by the way, if you are trying to get your point across, please try to use actual words to not sound like uneducated ghetto trash. Words like "gubbamint" make you sound extremely stupid. Are you even a student at NIU or some uneducated fool who thinks that "The Man" is trying to get him "Down" from the GOVERNMENT?!

Jake

wells said...

as soon as you touch a gun, you are the owner moron...I get my information from the same place you do...other people...

cheers greg,go shoot something and have a splendid day.

Anonymous said...

all of you for gun control and to the ones who think guns should be abolished!! think about it this way: if you were thinking about robbing a store, or walking into a campus full of students, and you knew for a FACT, that at least 5 of the 200 students were carrying, i almost guarantee you would think twice about it!!! yeah greg is an idiot for the way he worded his opinion, but he is right!!! and to those who think more guns= more death, your a bunch of ignorant ass holes, who don't think before they open their mouth!!! you don't just give everyone guns!!! tests, back round checks, are just a few options to weed out the idiots!!! if we take away all the legal registered guns, (which, by the way, are the only guns you'll be able to take away!!!!!) then the only people left with guns are the people who own unregistered guns and illegal guns!!! think about it for awhile before you make yourselves look stupid!!!! my heart goes out to all the victims and their families!!!! :)

Anonymous said...

why the hell did tragedy didn't make headlines like vrginia tech mureder happenned

Anonymous said...

sounds like this killer has been a psychopath for quite a long time.

Anonymous said...

Greg new his name because the story was released by MSNBC.com @ 9:00am. I don't agree with carrying guns in school but if one would of had one, maybe this punk would of been killed before other innocent people were. I know people who carry guns & would only pull it out in a SERIOUS life threating situation like this one...I personaly dont own a gun. my heart goes to those who were hurt or lost their lives. I pray for the families of the victims.

historymike said...

Re: research on a breaking story:

I can't remember which source first mentioned that Kazmierczak won awards, but after they mentioned he won a 2006 Dean's award at NIU it was easy to figure out.

Start with this Google cache and this other Google cache for the pages that NIU scrubbed from their website.

Someone emailed me about a Facebook site for Kazmierczak, but I think this is a red herring. I have not ben able to find a Facebook or MySpace page for him yet.

Anonymous said...

I think, during especially horrific times of violence, that those prone to emotional reactions rather than logical thought, are prone to thinking the simple act of taking guns away from society is apt to save us from a growing number of sick and violent people. It would not leave us safer until society begins to address the root causes of violence rather than the tools which facilitate it. Fatherlessness, absence of moral and spiritual virtue, the cultural grooming of narcistic and violent means to resolve conflict. These are the root causes-not guns.

Anonymous said...

More guns = more death is wrong.

The problem is not the amount of guns, its whose hands its in. Lets get out of lala land shall we; I'ts too late to keep guns out of criminal's hands. if we tried this 2 years ago, may have worked a bit, well, till they start bringing it in from Mexico.

If no civilian is allowed to carry firearms, whats these guys gunna say? "OMG! its illegal for me to have this gun!, I better turn it in now!"? or are they going to say "everyone in any house that i break into will have unarmed, helpless occupants". Then those criminals without them will start thinking "well, it makes things easier when stealing, and its not like they can shoot me so let me pick up a gun". A loaded gun on the table is more harmless than an empty one in someone's hands. People kill people, guns are just the weapon of choice.

So, lets re-do the math now, less people = less death, but since that wont happen; more guns in the right hands = less death

The Screaming Nutcase said...

If more guns on scene=more deaths, then why do mass shootings only happen in places where private citizens are already prohibited from carrying theirs?

For the opposite example, consider the Denver church shooting. The woman that stopped that by shooting the gunman was a private citizen with a concealed handgun license. (She had been a cop "during the 1990s." When you haven't been a cop for 8-10 years, you pretty much revert back to civilian status....) Students and professors shot at the gunman in the bell tower at the University of Texas back in 1966, forcing him to take cover instead of shooting with impunity: "I peeked around the office doorway to see one professor shooting a deer rifle at the top of tower while the other fed him ammunition. It never entered my mind to question why an English professor would have his deer rifle in his office complete with boxes of ammunition....The large glass faced clock above the observation deck was shattered from others shooting back at [the sniper]."

I do think that Greg M. should have waited for the dust to settle a bit and been a bit more sensitive...we're talking about six dead innocent victims here, for God's sake! It's a bit tasteless to turn this tragedy into a political point so quickly, and so ineloquently.

Anonymous said...

Guns exist, even if you ban them people will get them. Crazy people who see unarmed prey and targets will use the power of a gun to destroy life. But with a gun you can protect your own life. This guy might have re-thought is plan if he knew he might only get to kill 2 people and then be shot. Or maybe he would have survived and would have been thrown in jail. Also if everyone had a gun most people don't want to kill others knowing they will die too. Most want to kill and get away with it, and or steal knowing they have the power of gun and you don't. Point is I am safer with a gun then your without. Without in are the mercy of gun man without any control and chance to save your own life from the crazy person.

wells said...

society creates its own monsters, so to a certain degree we are all responsible, aside from our bs idealistic philosophies...A global shift in consciousness needs to occur. And it will..I just hope it doesn't result from this trend of violence...World Wide.

“Just as one must learn the art of killing in the training for violence, so one must learn the art of dying in the training of non-violence”

-Gandhi.

Anonymous said...

Okay seriously people, what good are gun laws going to do? The ONLY people following current gun laws are law abiding citizens. The gang bangers and murderers aren't going to say "oh wait this is illegal, here's my guns, sorry bout that my bad". Taking away our right to own a weapon is giving MORE power to the criminals.

How about instead of adding MORE dumbass laws that are not enforced we go after the real criminals and make some laws that make sense, like ammo stored seperately from guns, and all guns being locked in an appropriate safe etc. How about some education on gun safety?

Seriously, a gun ban is only going to make walking on the streets LESS safe. Criminals can ALWAYS get weapons. And someone like this NIU guy will just build a bomb or do something else if that was his goal.

Oh, and why don't some of you do a little research on which states have "concealed carry laws" and see how low their crime rates are. A thief who doesn't know if you're carrying or if you even know how to use a gun is a lot less likely to mess with you.

Anonymous said...

blah blah blah, and two weeks later none of you will care about this until some other nutcases do other shootings. And then the cycle repeats itself.

Danette said...

Although you may think it's logical that students carrying weapons could have responded positively in this tragedy, life is not a movie. I don't even want to think about what might have happened in my college classes (especially a class like this one with potentially over 100 students attending) if my classmates were armed in such a panicked situation. The chances that some panicked college "hero" could aim and fire accurately at the gunman without hurting any innocent students as they furiously tried to escape is really slim.

Imagine how your eighteen-year-old would feel if they were trying to save the day and accidentally killed one of their classmates? If we really want to stop this type of thing from happening, we have to figure out how to do what is seemingly impossible - stop a suicidal person from committing this type of crime.

It's the same problem we have had with terrorists for years, decades even. If a person is willing to die, there's very little you can do to stop them, metal detectors be damned. Gun-wielders in courthouses have previously just shot security guards and detector guards as they passed through - the detectors did not hinder them in any way. God bless all of the victims and their loved ones.

Anonymous said...

Times change so we don't need the right to carry guns? I agree, times do change so let's just start restricting the rights we don't like.
I think people who cannot name the Sec. of State should not be allowed to vote. I think people who don't pay taxes should be disqualified from voting. Folks who pay no real estate taxes should have no say in public education...
I can go on and on.
All of you elitist should not be so quick to take rights away from others.

Baltimore_Yeti said...

Thoughts about Dekalb NIU rampage. A crazy or the hidden whackos who suddenly snap will use a gun, knife, sword, axe, bomb, fire or what ever is available on hand to kill with. If one of the students hand a gun in that lecture hall maybe the shooter's body count would be a lot lower than it was. Thugs and killers will find away to obtain a gun be it legal or illegal. In a perfect world where there are no illegal guns any where on the planet it would make sense to ban private ownership of guns in the USA. Guns insure security of the citizen.

Private ownership of guns is a basic right of every American. When we lose that right we lose our liberty.

Anonymous said...

JAKE what makes you think that you are so enlightened? Do you really think you posses a brilliant mind simply because you are in college or have gone to college? What a self righteous ignorant moron you are. What makes you think you are entitled to opine on whether someone in that room would have responded had they been carrying a licensed firearm.

Unfortunately 7 people are dead. And why? Because as a society we have become the very definition of insanity. We have experienced tragedies like Virginia Tech, Columbine etc and yet refuse to change while expecting a different result.

The fact is guns have a place anywhere groups of people gather as these are the preferred venues for deranged criminals such as Kazmierczak.

Do not try to make others feel inadequate due to your false sense of morality and self assessed enlightment. Really think about the core issue before you blurt out incongruence.

Thinking about NIU at VT said...

To the student who posted that had been in the classroom at NIU -- NO ONE blames anyone but the $#%^@ shooter for what happened yesterday. I am so sorry for what you're going through. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.

historymike said...

Re: Gun control and the NIU shooting:

I am personally a supporter of the 2nd Amendment and the right to carry a weapon, though I respect the state's right to license the right to carry with at least a minimum of training, much like we do with automobiles.

That being said, a psychopath like Steven Kazmierczak has one goal: to kill as many people as possible in a short time. All the laws in the world will not deter someone like Kazmierczak, and even if we could magically make every gun on the planet disappear, he would just choose another method of mass murder.

Maybe he would chain all the doors and start a fire, or maybe he would buld a bomb, but a murderer like Kazmierczak will try to kill.

Referring to Greg's comment: maybe 30 pistol-packing students could have reduced the carnage, but Kazmierczak snuck from behind a curtain so that he would have the element of surprise. He certainly would have goten off 10-12 shots before even a trained law enforcement official could draw a weapon and return fire.

Imagine, too, of a fire fight broke out and more people were injured or killed.

Again, I am not a knee-jerk, round-up-the-guns type, but events like this happen so quickly that I am skeptical that there could have been intervention in the classroom.

Vigilance before the crime might have made a difference, but this is hindsight on my part. Someone who knew Kazmierczak might have noticed changes in his behavior, or someone might have seen him bringing weapons on campus, or someone might have overheard him making threats beforehand, and then reported this information to the police.

These are the ways that tragedies are best prevented, but too often we as humans fail to recognize when a friend or colleague is beginning to act squirrelly.

No offense to the nation's squirrels.

Anonymous said...

Greg you are a smart man. If someone would have had a gun to fight back instead of running, so many people wouldnt have been killed. At least make it fair.

fyourightwing said...

I am so sick of these right winged freaks running this country! what we need is gun control! PERIOD> I am sick and tired of seeing innocent kids get killed. IF GUNS WERE ILLEGAL, THESE MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE WOULDN'T HAVE THE COMMON SENSE TO FIND A GUN.
If these nuts couldn't get guns, innocent people wouldn't need to protect ourselves. OUR POLITICIANS HAVE OFFICIALLY BECOME USELESS. the right wing is ruining this country. YOU PEOPLE WHO LOVE GUNS...YOU WILL WAKE UP THE DDAY SOMEONE U LOVE GETS MOWED DOWN BY A GUN. UNTIL THEN, YOU REMAIN IGNORANT.

Anonymous said...

****BREAKING NEWS**** CNN JUST REPORTED IT IS HUNTING DOWN THIS LUNATICS RABBI TO GET HIM TO SPILL MORE BEANS. STAY TUNED!!

Jake said...

The shooter owned 2 of the guns... Those gun laws and background checks really worked huh? Maybe we shouldn't have guns? What do you think of that now?

Anonymous said...

If any of you have actually seen valid statistics, you'd see that places where guns are banned have HIGHER amounts of gun-related deaths than places where there are looser gun control laws.

Hm...why is that?
How about the common logic that when you tell someone not to do something, they're going to do it.

I agree, this is a serious event and people should definitely not be allowed to carry guns on campus for safety reasons, but making gun control laws stricter to where it's illegal to carry a gun unless you're a cop will make the crime rates rise. Let's face it (women, especially), you don't know everyone on the streets. Someone may come an attack you. Are you seriously going to risk your life like that because you put a nation-wide ban on the guns?

Okay.
Do that and see how many women are found dead after an attack,

Anonymous said...

TALKING ABOUT IT WON;T HELP BRING ANYONE BACK...GETTING OUT THERE AND MAKING A DIFFERENCE IN A FUTURE GUNAMN WILL. IF ONLY PEOPLE WERE NICER TO EACHOTHER THAN WE WOULN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT PEOPLE GOING CRAZY!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Fyourightwing, in response to your childish posting. No, are families will not get mowed down because unlike you we are prepared and exercise our 2nd Amendment Rights. When and if somethinhg like this happens to us we will have leveled the playing field and the lunatic gunman will not find an unarmed defenseless citizen. Now go drive your Prius and drink some soy milk to settle your stomach.

shelton said...

i dont understand why people are against guns, how would anyone feel protected if only officers carried them and they're no where to be found? this is a horrible tragidy that has happend, i dont wish this on anyone nor does anyone deserve this, guns dont kill people, stupid people with guns do, i for one would be pretty upset if i couldnt get my foyd card and to purchase a firearm if i wanted to. its just sad that people dont have their sences about them and ruin it for people who dont want to inflict harm on others.-shelton.

Mary Ann said...

Greg M,
I am a student at NIU and it absolutely sickens me to read what you thought was appropriate to post. We are talking about innocent people here and you honestly believe that adding more violence to what happened would have been helpful?!?! I pray that something like this never occurs in your life because it will be such harsh reality if it does. God Bless N.I.U please keep us in your thoughts and prayers.

Anonymous said...

History Mike- the sad part is we will never know what would have happened in all these nutcases going off if others around them were armed.
No stat is kept on crimes being prevented by armed law abiding citizens.
We do know for sure, the crazies don't walk into police stations and start shooting. They always choose soft targets.
Coincidence- I don't think so. They know there will be no resistance.
So all of these what ifs mean nothing.
What if he knew there was a chance somebody else in the classroom was packing heat. Maybe he would have stayed home and just shot himself.
We did have one case (I cannot remember the name of the school) were a law abiding 2nd amendment supporter stopped one of these jackasses in their tracks.

fyourightwing said...

Anonymous: Oh, you'll be prepared like all the students who have been killed were prepared? You are a dellusion, and not very logical person. You are clearly one of those persons who doesn't see that every life is important and not just yours. You clearly don't care about issues like the environment either. So in my eyes, you are pretty useless.

Anonymous said...

You know ... keep judging people, calling them dumbass or idiot ... that solves problems, right. If you have an alternative, state it, otherwise you just create more issues with people by personally attacking them! ... which leads to more reactions than guns do. The person pulls the trigger, the gun is not automatic! People have, and should have, the right to defend themselves. Unfortunately, we don't have enough to defend themselves with their brains first! If you make statements agaianst guns, you better have the proper knowledge, first hand, to do so (IE: gun training and use). Don't make off the wall comments that only create more animousity and hurt.

Anonymous said...

If I were a student nowadays, I would seriously consider carrying a loaded weapon around with me for protection.

I wouldn't tell anyone I had an armed weapon on me because it's none of their business.

Hopefully it would never need to be used, but in case it was needed, it would be.

I agree with Greg. Don't spend time talking about what you need to do, just do it.

Anonymous said...

JAKE have you ever heard of the Black Market for guns? I.e. street thugs, gangs, and organized crime selling weapons to the highest bidder? And no JAKE they do not follow your laws. So no matter how tough and restrictive you would like to make them they will not WORK!!!

Melanie said...

Wow! Everyone here is so passionate about guns. The reality is that guns do not kill people, people kill people. There is no way to diagnose a person with a clean record as a "gun risk". Instead of changing things this way or that, why don't people put more faith in GOD and pray. This may relieve the anger and then negativity in this world. Let's start at the root instead of what is becoming the result. Ya'll better hope Greg M. isn't crazy, because ya'll of tore him down with all of your words and anger. Find God, not guns!

Anonymous said...

Far between sundown's finish an' midnight's broken toll
We ducked inside the doorway, thunder crashing
As majestic bells of bolts struck shadows in the sounds
Seeming to be the chimes of freedom flashing
Flashing for the warriors whose strength is not to fight
Flashing for the refugees on the unarmed road of flight
An' for each an' ev'ry underdog soldier in the night
An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.

In the city's melted furnace, unexpectedly we watched
With faces hidden as the walls were tightening
As the echo of the wedding bells before the blowin' rain
Dissolved into the bells of the lightning
Tolling for the rebel, tolling for the rake
Tolling for the luckless, the abandoned an' forsaked
Tolling for the outcast, burnin' constantly at stake
An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.

Through the mad mystic hammering of the wild ripping hail
The sky cracked its poems in naked wonder
That the clinging of the church bells blew far into the breeze
Leaving only bells of lightning and its thunder
Striking for the gentle, striking for the kind
Striking for the guardians and protectors of the mind
An' the poet an the painter far behind his rightful time
An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.

In the wild cathedral evening the rain unraveled tales
For the disrobed faceless forms of no position
Tolling for the tongues with no place to bring their thoughts
All down in taken-for granted situations
Tolling for the deaf an' blind, tolling for the mute
For the mistreated, mateless mother, the mistitled prostitute
For the misdemeanor outlaw, chased an' cheated by pursuit
An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.

Even though a clouds's white curtain in a far-off corner flashed
An' the hypnotic splattered mist was slowly lifting
Electric light still struck like arrows, fired but for the ones
Condemned to drift or else be kept from drifting
Tolling for the searching ones, on their speechless, seeking trail
For the lonesome-hearted lovers with too personal a tale
An' for each unharmfull, gentle soul misplaced inside a jail
An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.

Starry-eyed an' laughing as I recall when we were caught
Trapped by no track of hours for they hanged suspended
As we listened one last time an' we watched with one last look
Spellbound an' swallowed 'til the tolling ended
Tolling for the aching whose wounds cannot be nursed
For the countless confused, accused, misused, strung-out ones an' worse
An' for every hung-up person in the whole wide universe
An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.

Jake said...

If people really do have true opinions and stand before what they are saying, why are they hiding by posting as anonymous? I do not think that I am more righteous then anyone. And I am not shooting my mouth off in ignorance. Were you there? I was right across the street when it happened... People I know where in that class room...

In regards to the "It's our 2nd amendment right to carry guns", Yes it is but why is that even a question as of now? He used is right and bought 2 guns. He also got a hold of 2 guns illegally. No one here has the authority to change what happened or can change how people will get guns or how they will use them. For those who think that politicians are useless to get guns out of the hands of psycho's, if you think you can do a better job, run for office, prove you can do it, get the votes, and you do a better job.

Kerry O'Grady said...

This has nothing to do with guns.

Legal, doctor prescribed, lethal pills is what is to blame once again in this tragic situation.

Far too many people running around taking mind altering legal drugs. When was the last time you saw a marijuana smoker go off like this?

fyourightwing said...

anonymous, get a grip on reality. There will always be crazy people who want to kill. Period. Take away their ability. Simple. I have given you the alternative. NO GUNS. No packing heat. where are you from? That will tell me alot about your backwards views. Good luck with your preparedness. That is a joke.

wells said...

go listen to this song. think about it. think about how petty this argument is. And although important, think about how petty your life is. Start spreading some love. It all starts with the individual. Change in the face of change. much love.

Anonymous said...

I own a USP .45 and decked out AR15, but I think Greg and his supporters are all idiot.
comparing NIU shooting to a random street robbery is like comparing apple to orange. The guy in NIU has no intention to live after that, the only way that could've stopped him is to kill him in time. what makes you think few kids with a pistol can take him down in time with out panic?! in case of street robbery, the crook want to live after that, they just use their gun to scare people.

wells said...

It's a Dylan song by the way for those of you unaware..."Chimes of Freedom."

Anonymous said...

Greg G. Said

Good post greg m. Dito to chris martin. And Vannesa.

Anonymous said...

Fyourightwing so you think my logic is flawed. Lets analyze. You said "Oh, you'll be prepared like all the students who have been killed were prepared".

Can't you see the lack of thought in your statement? You just contradicted your argument. It is precisely because these students could not be prepared due to left wing communist lunatics like you that thse students were defenseless. Had they been allowed to carry licensed firearms this could have been prevented.

You can attack me all you like and I couldn't care less if you think I;m useless. The fact is you will be happy when someone like me stands up and prevents a tragedy such as this from happening.

Now go out and buy some energy saving lightbulbs and eat some Tempeh to lower your blood pressure and make you feel good about yourself.

Anonymous said...

I have a gun in my pocket right now. I've been specially trained to shoot it. I've never pulled it on someone in a fit of rage... nor will I ever.

If I'm confronted by someone who wants to shoot me... I will not whimper like all these people calling greg a dumbass. I'll fight back. Yeah, I may die... but at least I had a fighting chance.

kelly said...

GREG HIT IT ON THE NAIL!!! I AM NOT A GUN ENTHUSIAST, BUT AS A WOMAN I OWN ONE FOR PROTECTION...AND YOU CAN BET YOUR ASS THE SHOOTER WOULD HAVE THOUGHT TWICE ABOUT HIS ACTIONS IF HE KNEW THAT AFTER ONE SHOT HE'D HAD 50 GUNS POINTED DIRECTLY AT HIM BY PEOPLE WHO ARE LICENSED, RESPONSIBLE AND EXPERIENCED SHOOTERS WITH HIM BEING THE ULTIMATE TARGET!!! WE HAVE A RIGHT TO DEFEND OURSELVES AGAINST THESE INDIVIDUALS...WE NEED TO ALTLEAST BE GIVEN THE OPTION TO DO SO!

Anonymous said...

Sad state of affairs. Sounds like the next Kaczmeriak, Cho Seung-Hui, Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold is right here among us, right here on these boards...along with our society's "defenders". Stand by the 2nd amendment and grab all the guns you want. They won't make me feel any safer.

Smell the gunpowder.

Rest in peace to all the victims.

Anonymous said...

Fyourightwing-
I am all for getting rid of rights-let's do it.
Why just stop with the 2nd. Here are a few more:
First Amendment – Establishment clause, freedom of religion (Free Exercise Clause), speech, and press, and peaceable assembly as well as the right to petition the government.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Second Amendment – Right to keep and bear arms.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Third Amendment – Protection from quartering of troops.
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Fifth Amendment – Due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and other rights of the accused.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.
Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail, as well as cruel and unusual punishment.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Tenth Amendment – Powers of states and people.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Anonymous said...

Hey FYourRightWing-You want guns to be illegal? You really think that will do anything?? Let's take a look at illegal drugs. People still die over that so what makes you think making guns illegal will make everything all peachy keen? You are the one who isn't living in reality, not these kids who want to be able to carry guns to protect themselves.


For HistoryMike-is there a place where I can find out if my friends are okay? We haven't heard from everyone and my husband is worried about them. And since they have only released a few names, it hasn't helped when it comes to the others....

Anonymous said...

Bunch of dreamers...

OK what if he had no access to guns? What if he brings a couple of home made pipe bombs ? Why don't we ban steel pipes and common chemicals too?

Idiots and criminals will exist, and they won't care about any ban or any law.

Anonymous said...

JAKE so being across the street makes you an authority on what could have happened there and what are gun laws should be?

You said it yourself "He also got a hold of 2 guns illegally". If you take that fact to its logical conclusion, it would not have made an iota of difference whther guns were COMPLETELY BANNED!

So yet again your argument is flawed and stands on barren footing.

I echo Kelly's comment.

Anonymous said...

Greg M...you are pathetic. The second amendment was made when guns were single shot and took 1-2 min to reload each round, not when there were fully automatic AK-47s that made this mass killing possible. This is why gun control is necessary. There are zero reasons why anyone but armed forces need rapid fire guns. They were made to kill people, no other reason. Only uneducated rednecks support the 2nd amendment.

Europe doesn't have these college shootings...do you know why Greg M? Oh yeah...guns are illegal there. Sadly rednecks like you are too ignorant to make that connection though because you don't want the gubbamint to take your guns away.

breaknine said...

mike, good blog entry. I, like you, find it puzzling that it seems like this guy does not seem to find a typical profile. I am curious to see if we ever find out a reason...

Sorry that you also have to deal with the 2nd amendment debate that commenters turned this into.

fyourightwing said...

Anonymous: Your logical is flawed. Nothing is stopping these students or anyone else from getting a gun legally? Oh why haven't they done it? Because what a sick world we live in when we all need to carry guns to protect ourselves. Screw your 2nd amendment rights. The gun laws are NOT strict enough and therefore not working. Yeah, people get illegal drugs..but can u imagine how much worse it would be if it were legal? I will never see your side so stop trying. I hope you shoot yourself in the foot with your "packed heat". GO smoke another joint.

kevin said...

Whether you feel that guns are good bad or other they are an integral part of our society. With that said statistically places that have right to carry laws and laxed gun control policies have much less gun violence. The fact that another person has a gun or may have a gun doesn't allow a gun possessor to stand so high and mighty above the rest of the society. Do I think guns should be allowed in classrooms definitely not. However increasing restrictions on gun control is not the answer. It is illegal for any felon to possess a gun but inevitably they still will own and possess guns. The only thing outlawing guns will do is to make it harder for law abiding citizens to protect themselves because the criminals will always have guns! Where there is a will there is always a way! Pull your heads out of the sand and realize that more guns to not equate to more death but instead an even playing field for everyone. Even a 90 year old woman can kill the world's toughest man with a gun so should she be denied the right to protect herself. I think not! The reason the second amendment was enacted was to provide for a militia to protect the people from the government in a time of desperation however there was no need then to protect the people from each other because there were not cases of insane individuals shooting up schools that are supposed to be safe. However you can bet that if someone tried he would be shot by the rest of the armed people. So, it didn't happen. So why should we take guns away today to wait for the police? These crazy shooters have all committed suicide before any cops have ever arrived. Think about it before you decide that all guns should be banned.
And to the person that says he was in the store in OK when the shooting took place, I can tell you this I personally own a .45 auto and I do not carry it with me ever since it is illegal to do so. However if I was in the store and was armed I would wait for him with my gun and pop him first. Maybe the guy would get me but I would rather go down fighting than let some coward take out a bunch of scared innocent people. Further we have plenty of former military civilians that have been in combat and I can guarantee that many of them would proceed after a shooter with a gun and would not think of running. In fact there was an incident recently in a church where an unarmed former marine taunted a shooter in a church while he was unarmed until a police woman shot the guy.

Anonymous said...

School Shootings: Made in the USA. Only in America, baby.

The Constitution would have read so much better if they put they moved the second amendment down a few in the order. "Well, you have the right to say whatever you want and pray to whoever you want to but hey, I have the right to pop a cap in your ass if I disagree." Yee-haw. 2nd amendment my ass.

It was drawn up in the 1700's. By a bunch of people who haven't had to deal with what goes on in the world TODAY. Fast foward a few hundred years later. Honestly, today is pretty f***ed up and a gun isn't gonna make it better or safer.

Uncle Drew said...

This has hit home as I used to live and work in DeKalb.

Random, senseless. The more such incidents, the more I never want to move back to the US.

I live in Europe and let me tell you that it is a pleasure not to have to think about getting shot.

Guns are the problem because there will always be wackos wherever you live, but if they don't have guns you don't get shot.

Anonymous said...

In response to "Europe doesn't have these college shootings...do you know why Greg M?"

You are plain ignorant. Just do a little research before you make a fool of yourself. Read this article about a campus shooting in Finland(Do you know what continent Finland is in?) where private gun ownership is banned and tell me what you think then!

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90853/6304426.html

Anonymous said...

Hi,
I disagree that carrying guns make us safer for the following reasons:

1. Human beings act impetuously on occasions. Carrying a gun provides an individual to act on his impulses and hurt others. Think about drunk individuals wandering around campus with guns in their pockets.

2. The shooter in NIU *intended* to kill himself. So even if everyone in that lecture hall was armed, he would have still launched his attack. In fact, if every single individual in that hall was armed there would have been a free-for-all shooting.

In my perspective, we are becoming increasingly a nation of "talkers" (under the guise of freedom-of-speech), "shooters" (under the guise of the 2nd amendment), and "addicts" (under the guise of 'I have the right to do anything'). It is no surprise that we are losing our grip in scientific leadership and education.

Anonymous said...

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

Anonymous said...

6 people died not 7

Anonymous said...

The founding fathers actually debated making the right to bear arms the first amendment. That's how important they believed it was.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps Europe doesn't have as many of these kinds of incidents because they have quality mental health services. Guns are available in Europe but more primarily to the rich. This is how it had always been in Europe and in responce to which the 2nd ammendment was written. Most of these kinds of criminals had had contact with mental health services which failed them and society. That is the issue that our focus CAN address and perticularly amidst the renewed health care debate. What is this shooters mental health profile? Some have suggested that he was on a Provak-like drug. Even if he is the rare example of a mass murderer who had not had a history of mental illness, I would still argue that a reformed system could have and should have as its object to attract people as he has proven to be. Perhaps no one else thought he was nuts but that doesn't mean that he didn't know he was nut's. Are background checks for mental illness a way to keep guns out of the hands of the mentaly ill or a deterent that keeps the mentally ill from seeking treatment?

Small Biz Owner said...

If the media would stop covering these incidents, then the crazy's might stop doing this. Before Columbine, there were very few mass shootings, now we have numerous each year. Media is part of the problem, other part of the problem is that friends should intervene when they see symptoms, Virgina Tech could have been prevented because both his family and doctors knew he had problems.

We need to study these events and then take preventive action so they do not occur so often.

historymike said...

The death toll is widely reported now as six plus the shooter, Anonymous.

Someone emailed me with the Illinois-Urbana info page on Steven Kazmierczak, for what it is worth.

Anonymous said...

Who gets to decide which of us are nuts?
Now that's scary.

Anonymous said...

I think we are missing the point to Greg M. I think people kill people not guns. We should be more focused on finding how to prevent future shootings in terms of helping people with problems or profiling potential killers. Guns or no guns people kill people. Everyones knows nobody would shoot somebody just because he took his seat. It is not that easy for someone to want so shoot someone else.

lafew said...

This is just another example of the sorry state of mental health in the U.S. Some people like this one are so primed, that they go off without talking to anyone out of fear for the stigma attached.

It has nothing to do with gun control, but everything to do with the fact that some people have their priorities so screwed up that none of us know until it is too late.

If the guy was enrolled at UIUC, then perhaps he could not cope with the change. If the media and the public find mental health a stigma and embarrass those who try to seek help, then those silent with serious issues may simply find death a means to end their internal dilemma.

This guy, like those who look to terrorism to get respect, should be disrespected by putting their names in oblivion.

We should remember the victims and obscure the terrorists, whether they are home grown or otherwise. Whether they claim affiliation or act on their own.

Society needs to look at what makes these folks tick and get ticked off. We need to find outlets and not be recreationally and socially adverse. There is a place and a time for almost everything, but obvious not this.

Shooting off comments about gun control and even enacting a ban it will not stop violence. Those bent on it will put out a butcher knife and attack a New York Psychologist. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23143942/

A Friend said...

This is a terrible loss for so many families, as well as for the entire NIU community - to all of whom my heart goes out.

Certainly we, as a society, must collectively provide proper mental health services for those who can be identified as a threat to themselves and others. One need only walk down the streets of any major metropolitan area to see the human wreckage of those suffering from mental illness, alcholism and drug addiction. There are many more suffering behind the doors and windows of their homes. Might one of them be the next to pick up a gun or knife and do unspeakable things?

The problem goes well beyond gun laws. I don't know which new prohibitions beyond those that already exist might prevent another such senseless attack.
When I was in high school in the mid-1970s, our school, located in an affluent Chicago suburb, had a rifle club. Once a month, the other members and I would carry our .22 caliber rifles to school (unloaded and in cases, of course). The guns were then locked in a closet to which the club's sponsoring teacher had the only key. At the end of the school day, we picked up our rifles, carried them to a school van, and drove to a rifle range in another suburb. After each outing, we would return to school, unload the van, then head home toting our books and rifles.

The thought of turning a weapon on our classmates or teachers simply wouldn't have occurred to any one of us. The mere notion was beyond the pale. And if the thought would have occurred to any of us, I'm sure each of us would have been far more worried about what our parents would have done to us than any punishment that might have been imposed by the criminal justice system.

As a licensed gun owner, I don't think anyone should be allowed to own a gun without first obtaining a license, and shouldn't be able to obtain a license without first undergoing a background check, psychological screening, and mandatory arms training.

As to whether or not a state should allow a conceal-carry law, each state will properly decide that for itself.

Whether one does or does not, we should recognize that passing a conceal-carry law does not automatically guarantee that there will never again be a tragedy such as that which struck Virginia Tech and NIU.

But we also should recognize that the statistics overwhelmingly show a sustained drop in violent crime in those states that do have conceal-carry laws.

Certainly some significant portion of that drop in violence reflects a deterrence factor associated with the conceal-carry law. Many people will recall, for example, that Florida, which has a conceal-carry law, became infamous for the targeted armed robbery (and more than one murder) of many domestic and international tourists.

Especially vulnerable were tourists leaving airports in rental cars. The reason was that would-be criminals knew that the people coming out of airports were the only people in the state who absolutely would not be armed, whereas the average individual walking down the street might well be carrying a weapon.

Florida ultimately passed a law banning any stickers, license plates or other insignia that might identify a vehicle as being a rental car. The state also stepped-up its police presence along roads leading to and from its major airports.

As for college campuses, churches, theaters, auditoriums, shopping malls, or other locations where large numbers of people gather for innocent activities, I don't know that we need rooms filled with armed people to stop a would-be killer. Although, God forbid, were I trapped in one, I'd rather have a legally-concealed sidearm with me than not.

But I do think each state should carefully weigh the deterrent factor of permitting licensed individuals who have undergone a background check, psychological screening, and arms training, to carry a concealed weapon.

For the possibility that one or more targeted individuals might be armed can be sufficient disincentive to keep even a disturbed individual from crossing over that final, horrible, unspeakable line.

May God grant mercy and peace on the victims of yesterday's attack, and on the families and friends who loved them.

DavieFL said...

Possible solutions:

1)
if we MAKE IT ILLEGAL TO GIVE THE NAME OR SHOW THE PICTURE OF THESE SHOOTERS, that will go a long way towards stopping them. Nobody should be able to become famous for doing something like this. The name is not important. Justice is when they are completely forgotten and never remembered. But we can still study their actions, and their profiles. Some will argue this infringes on free speech, but some speech hurts all of us, and is not allowed: yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, for example, or revealing information relating to national security (such as U.S. troop postitions, or the identity of U.S. intelligence operatives)

The first and best solution I can think of is to stop rewarding killers with media fame.

If you agree, I hope you will mention this idea to your friends.
thank you
-Davie, FL

Anonymous said...

Fyourightwing stop aying that my logic is flawed and prove it with a valid reasoned argument! You keep shovig your foot deeper into your pie hole with each posting.

You said "Nothing is stopping these students or anyone else from getting a gun legally? Oh why haven't they done it?"

Do you understand that colleges and universities are "gun free" zones, except for the criminals that is, and even if these students could have jumped through the hoops of restrictive gun laws in Illinois they would still be defenseless since they could not bring their licensed firearms on campus?

Are you really that dumb that you don't even know how to substantiate yoiur won argument and instead give the other side more ammunition? Pun intended!

Scott said...

I agree with Greg. Its not a gun that kill people. Its stupid people that kill people. Im not a gun owner or anything like that, but I do believe as an american under the second amendment we have the right to protect ourselves. Also with all these gun control measures its seem very similar to what the Nazis made the German people do before world war two. They made the citizens turn in all their weapons. Citizens with out guns cant rise up against if something was to ever happen. Think about it. If you want to argue with me check your history. Also I'm not saying that what happened at NIU wasn't a tragedy , because it is. So please do not tell I'm sympathetic towards the family because I'm.

Anonymous said...

The fact is the US has some of the most liberal gun ownership laws in the world and in parallel we rank in the top 10 or 20 in homicides per capita and consistently in the top 10 per capita for murders committed by a firearm. Liberal gun ownership laws have not worked, many states have at will carry laws and this has still not significantly changed in either direction the number of homicides in this country.

The sad thing is that incidents like this are almost impossible to prevent no matter what the laws are. The real discussion should be about the 44 homicides that will occur today and everyday of this year in the US, over 16,000 people dead and about 65% (10,400 ) of those will be by firearms. Countries of similar economies with strict laws for public ownership and carrying of firearms come no where close to these percentages or statistics. Of all the western world countries only Northern Ireland and the US crack the top 15 and Northern Ireland will drop off that list as their homicide rate is dropping dramatically since the peace treaty was signed.

Here is a list of the countries we compare to:
South Africa - 75.3 of every 100,000 people are killed per year, 26.60 by firearms, Colombia - 36.53 of every 100,000 people are killed per year 29.59 by firearms, Estonia - 28.21 of every 100,000 people are killed per year 8.07 by firearms, Brazil - 19.04 of every 100,000 people are killed per year 10.58 by firearms, Mexico - 17.58 of every 100,000 people are killed per year 9.88 by firearms, Philippines - 16.20 of every 100,000 people are killed per year 3.50 by firearms, Taiwan - 8.12 of every 100,000 people are killed per year .97 by firearms, Northern Ireland - 6.09 of every 100,000 people are killed per year 5.24 by firearms, United States - 5.7 of every 100,000 people are killed per year 3.72 by firearms, Argentina - 4.51 of every 100,000 people are killed per year 2.11 by firearms, Hungary - 3.53 of every 100,000 people are killed per year .23 by firearms.

FYI, the vast majority of countries (that do not have a war occurring within their boarders) have a firearm homicide rate of less than 0.5 per 100,000.

It has not been determined if Kazmierczak owned the guns legally or not, but given that it appears he had a clean criminal record until yesterday, there was no barrier for him to purchase these firearms. If he acquired these guns legally, easy gun laws allowing purchase and possession made this much easier for him to pull off. Would he have still done committed this crime with stricter laws in place, probably. There have been incidents like this all over the world including countries like Canada and England where the gun laws are very strict. But there have been less of them than we have had here in the US, and I would guess that there are more of these types of incidents in the US then anywhere else (that is not at war). This is almost an annual event in the US now, and again lets not forget about the 44 people that will likely die today, 28 of them by firearms that will only get local or state news coverage.

The US Supreme Court will be ruling on the Washington D. C. gun restriction laws and likely making a direct interpretation of the second amendment. This ruling is scheduled to come out in March and the decision of the court will determine the path that many states and the country as a whole will move. Gun control advocates argue comparisons to other countries, while gun rights people will argue that D. C. has the highest murder rate in the US per capita and the population should be allowed to defend themselves. If I recall Washington D. C. has had a high murder rate prior to the gun control laws and after so it has not made a significant difference. Of course guns are readily available just outside of D. C. so those who want them can get them easily, and the easy accessibility will allow those that don't care about the law to acquire them at will under our current system.

It will be interesting to see if the court finally clears up the amendments intention which has been debated since it was written - is the amendment pertaining to individual rights or militia rights.

fyourightwing said...

Clearly, we have too many freedoms here. FREE TO GO SHOOT UP SCHOOLS WHENEVER WE WANT TO. We certainly cannot keep track of every mentally ill person, and treat them. That is impossible. What we can do is make it IMPOSSIBLE to get a gun. A seemingly sane person can get a gun, and THEN snap, which is clearly the case here. This is such simple logic. Can we at least try it to see if it works? What we have here is FAILING MISERABLY. WHEN SOMETING IS BROKEN, FIX IT

Anonymous said...

WHAT IS IT ABOUT LIBERALS THAT THEY KEEP PARROTING THE SAME CRAP ABOUT GUN CONTROL. GIVE UP THAT LOSING ARGUMENT ALREADY! LOOK AT IT THIS WAY... THEY HAVE STRONGER GUN CONTROL LAWS IN IRAQ AND THAT HASN'T MADE FOR A SAFER PLACE HAS IT? YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY THIS STUFF IS ONLY HAPPENING AS OF LATE, JUST REALIZE HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE ARE ON MIND-BENDING DRUGS TODAY WHICH ARE PRESCRIBED BY THESE CRIMINAL QUACK-PSYCHIATRISTS. THIS IS A NEW PHENONOMENON MAINLY HAPPENING IN THE US WHERE WE HAVE A HUGE PERCENTAGE OF OUR POPULATION BRAINWASHED BY ADS THAT THEY NEED TO BE HIGH ON PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS ALL DAY TO BE NORMAL. WHAT WAS ONCE SADNESS IS NOW, CLINICAL DEPRESSION. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING MOODY IS NOW BIPOLAR. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING SHY OR INTROSPECTIVE IS NOW SOCIAL ANXIETY. WHAT WAS ONCE TROUBLE LEARING MATH IS NOW MATHEMATICS DISORDER. WHAT WAS ONCE TEENAGE REBELLION IS NOW DEFIANCE DISORDER. ALL WHICH JUST SO HAPPEN TO HAVE A HAPPY PILL WHICH WILL TAKE YOU TO DREAMLAND AND MAKE ALL YOUR PAIN AND UPSET GO AWAY. JUST LOOK AT WHAT DRUGS THESE PEOPLE ARE ON AND YOU'LL FIND THE CAUSE. THE SIDE-EFFECTS ARE LISTED RIGHT ON THE BLACK BOX WARNING PEOPLE!!!

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Anonymous said...

Greg M should runf or President. His views carry a lot of insight.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous:
Criminals would be less likely to pull a gun to rob a store if he knew laws let everyone carry guns, he only pulls out his gun because he thinks he's the only one with one!


Maybe in some situations. But, in this situation, the gunman is not robbing a store. He's there to kill several people as quick as possible. He obviously wasn't afraid to die. Also, what would do if someone pulled a gun on you? You think you're a wild west gun-slinger and can draw your gun and fire before them?


Jack:
I'm not advocating everyone be allowed to carry, but if we made it similar to driving. You must be a certain age, take a course, and obtain a license.


Yeah, and think of all the bad drivers out there. You want any moron you walk by to possibly be packing heat? And morons would pass these tests.

I'm not against owning guns. I agree that it would be pointless to ban guns, as most people know that the people who do this type of thing will find a way to get a gun anyway.

But, I wouldn't want to worry about some quick-tempered, road-raging asshole shooting me cause I accidentally cut him off while driving. I wouldn't want to wonder if I got into a heated debate at the local pub with some drunk, whether or not he might get mad enough to pull a gun.

And I would absolutely not feel any safer knowing that students, at the school I work at, were carrying guns.

Anonymous:
3. To say that people are unable to tell the difference between someone who is randomly killing people and those who are shooting back at that criminal is simply ridiculous. It is very easy to tell the difference, mostly that all the bullets are flying at the original shooter.


Really? You've been in that situation. You can see bullets flying through the air? This happened in seconds. I'm an NIU alum. My wife works there, and my brother is a student there. There were threats in December that this may happen, but with more gunmen. Students were made aware of this. How would you know who's on your side? More gunmen could have come in through other doors. There were people all over, so would you jump up and shoot over these people, or through them? Don't know about you, but I'd take my chances finding a way out rather than shooting my pistol at a guy with a shotgun who's across a large auditorium full of panicking people.

Who knows why this guy did what he did. It's a senseless act of violence. I just can't believe so many people think that the public being allowed to carry guns would have made this situation better. NIU was on high alert from previous threats. Police responded amazingly fast. If you call the cops where you go to school or work, do they arrive in a minute?

I will continue to live my life, without fear of terrorism or insane gunmen. I think all you gun-happy people are scared. Why else do you need such extreme protection?

elohiym said...

You kids are idiots.

Jeanne Assam

Look her up....she is the one that killed the Colorado church shooter.

Secondly, you can never get guns off the streets just like you can't get drugs off the streets.

I bet many of the kids posting here have engaged in illegal drug activity and that is no different than putting a bullet in someone's head. So that makes you all hypocrites.

Lastly, I don't want to live in a Police state. Get rid of Bush and get the economy fixed and you'll see these acts of mass murder go way down.

Anonymous said...

"wells said...", I don't know what you're talking about in regards to 60% of all gunshot wounds being from the owners own gun, unless you're skewing it by counting suicides (which account for well over half the gun deaths annually). To cut you off at the pass arguing suicides as a case for gun control is rather pointless, as I can point you to a dozen other 1st world nations with strict gun control and higher suicide rates.

So far here I've seen some hilarious stuff, such as people arguing that allowing concealed carry is somehow going to make violence worse. This is in despite the fact that all but two states have some form of perfectly legal and obtainable carry permit and yet violent crime has been on a general decline since 1993. Also it ignores that the fact that statistically legal CCW holders are involved in only a tiny fraction of violent crime. In fact, there are several states that allow unlicensed concealed carry and most of them have murder/violent crime rates quite a bit lower than the national average. I'm not saying there's a concrete correlation there between CCW and low crime, but it helps prove that the CCW = BLOODBATH fallacy is just that.

I've seen people claim that introducing more guns into the equation would have only resulted in more dead. Well, maybe I would agree if it weren't for the fact that someone is already trying to kill everyone in the room. The shooter was also in the front of the room, firing at a retreating crowd and as a result any fire returned from said crowd would have been away from most innocents. Add to this the fact that every lecture hall I've ever been in has staggered seating (which helps allow ample clearance to safely fire over anyone left between a CCWer and the original shooter) and I'd say you put more emotional rhetoric than thought into your little scenario. Oh, and Shannon sorry but here in the real world guns just don't "go off". This isn't Boondock Saints, RIP kitty :(

There also seems to be a lot of confusion as to what goes into carrying. In my state, it's an expensive 8 hour long course in which you must be able to demonstrate the ability to load, operate, and unload both revolvers and semiautomatic handguns. You must pass a marksmanship course and pass a test on the legal ramifications of carrying and firing in self-defense. You cannot legally possess a handgun (and ergo a permit for it) if you are a felon or have certain misdemeanors on your record, and the local sheriff's department can deny your permit for any of those reasons. You must also renew and requalify for your permit yearly, just as a cop has to qualify to be able to carry their duty weapon. The only difference is that civilians don't get coddled through the quals, or receive special exceptions like I've seen happen with some police at the range where I work on weekends.

Someone said they weren't against carrying, but there needed to be age limits and training- but those are already in place. You buy a handgun and tuck it in your waistband without a permit, you are, with the exception of those living in a select few states, committing a crime.

We're not talking about CCW as a means to resolve petty disputes via pistols at dawn, no matter how many people make the false and baseless claim that would be the result.

I've seen people claim that when confronted with danger, anyone carrying a gun will piss themselves and curl up waiting to die. Yet, off the top of my head I can think of several cases where some ordinary schmuck with a little training stopped a shooting like this.

The Utah mall shooting stopped when a man with a CCW confronted the shooter (but did not fire when he saw how young the gunman was. This resulted in his injury, but caused the shooter to retreat and give himself up shortly thereafter.)

There was the recent church shooting, mentioned earlier, in which a civilian with a CCW stopped the shooter as soon as he entered the building.

In 1997 a vice-principal in Pearl, Mississippi by the name of Joel Myrick stopped a school shooting when he retrieved his CCW from his vehicle.

In 2003 a student shot three people at the Appalachian Law School and was attacking more while Mikael Gross and Tracy Bridges retrieved their legal CCW handguns from their vehicles. They confronted the shooter and ordered him to surrender, which he did.

A 14 year old student opened fire at a school graduation dance held at a local restaurant in Edinboro, PA, killing one and wounding three. He was stopped when the restaurant's owner grabbed a shotgun from the back and demanded his surrender.

Although it did not stop him outright, several citizens returning fire upon Charles Whitman with rifles shifted the focus from bystanders to them until the police could storm the clock tower and engage him themselves. Without that suppressive fire he could have continued to fire at those below with impunity.

I'm not saying everyone MUST HAVE A GUN but as someone who has used one in defense, it's not magic. Most of these shooters we've seen recently were not skilled or trained- so why, in the face of danger, would they have some huge magical advantage over trained CCWer like me?

There's a lot of unfounded postulating and poorly founded arguments going on here (and not just from the people I don't agree with, I have to admit) but those who seem to think that limiting access to guns ignores the fact that these things DO happen in other places with strict gun control. Post-1997, there was another school shooting in Australia. A few years back there was one in Sweden, and after that in Finland. There were three that took place in Thailand, despite the draconian gun laws there. Hell, you want me to start naming mass murders worse than this where there was no gun used to kill anyone at all? I know of several, without Googling.

Anonymous said...

WHAT IS IT ABOUT LIBERALS THAT THEY KEEP PARROTING THE SAME CRAP ABOUT GUN CONTROL. GIVE UP THAT LOSING ARGUMENT ALREADY! LOOK AT IT THIS WAY... THEY HAVE STRONGER GUN CONTROL LAWS IN IRAQ AND THAT HASN'T MADE FOR A SAFER PLACE HAS IT? YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY THIS STUFF IS ONLY HAPPENING AS OF LATE, JUST REALIZE HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE ARE ON MIND-BENDING DRUGS TODAY WHICH ARE PRESCRIBED BY THESE CRIMINAL QUACK-PSYCHIATRISTS. THIS IS A NEW PHENONOMENON MAINLY HAPPENING IN THE US WHERE WE HAVE A HUGE PERCENTAGE OF OUR POPULATION BRAINWASHED BY ADS THAT THEY NEED TO BE HIGH ON PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS ALL DAY TO BE NORMAL. WHAT WAS ONCE SADNESS IS NOW, CLINICAL DEPRESSION. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING MOODY IS NOW BIPOLAR. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING SHY OR INTROSPECTIVE IS NOW SOCIAL ANXIETY. WHAT WAS ONCE TROUBLE LEARING MATH IS NOW MATHEMATICS DISORDER. WHAT WAS ONCE TEENAGE REBELLION IS NOW DEFIANCE DISORDER. ALL WHICH JUST SO HAPPEN TO HAVE A HAPPY PILL WHICH WILL TAKE YOU TO DREAMLAND AND MAKE ALL YOUR PAIN AND UPSET GO AWAY. JUST LOOK AT WHAT DRUGS THESE PEOPLE ARE ON AND YOU'LL FIND THE CAUSE. THE SIDE-EFFECTS ARE LISTED RIGHT ON THE BLACK BOX WARNING PEOPLE!!!

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Anonymous said...

"Don't know about you, but I'd take my chances finding a way out rather than shooting my pistol at a guy with a shotgun who's across a large auditorium full of panicking people."

Don't think that simply because you would not have the courage to confront the gunman others would do the same. People are different and some would try to save the lives of others instead of only thinking about themselves.

Anonymous said...

The 2nd ammendment perpetuates the problem.

The UK had a nut-ball go into a school on a killing spree about 15 years ago (Dunblane), and as a result gun use was heavily restricted shortly after. There hasn't been a school shooting since...compare this with the situation in the US and it's hard to believe gun-nuts are still arguing for their right to bare arms.

Time for the pro-gun lobby to enter the 21st century...

Anonymous said...

WHAT IS IT ABOUT LIBERALS THAT THEY KEEP PARROTING THE SAME CRAP ABOUT GUN CONTROL. GIVE UP THAT LOSING ARGUMENT ALREADY! LOOK AT IT THIS WAY... THEY HAVE STRONGER GUN CONTROL LAWS IN IRAQ AND THAT HASN'T MADE FOR A SAFER PLACE HAS IT? YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY THIS STUFF IS ONLY HAPPENING AS OF LATE, JUST REALIZE HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE ARE ON MIND-BENDING DRUGS TODAY WHICH ARE PRESCRIBED BY THESE CRIMINAL QUACK-PSYCHIATRISTS. THIS IS A NEW PHENONOMENON MAINLY HAPPENING IN THE US WHERE WE HAVE A HUGE PERCENTAGE OF OUR POPULATION BRAINWASHED BY ADS THAT THEY NEED TO BE HIGH ON PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS ALL DAY TO BE NORMAL. WHAT WAS ONCE SADNESS IS NOW, CLINICAL DEPRESSION. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING MOODY IS NOW BIPOLAR. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING SHY OR INTROSPECTIVE IS NOW SOCIAL ANXIETY. WHAT WAS ONCE TROUBLE LEARING MATH IS NOW MATHEMATICS DISORDER. WHAT WAS ONCE TEENAGE REBELLION IS NOW DEFIANCE DISORDER. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING A KID IS NOW ADHD ETC, ETC, ETC, ETC..... ALL WHICH JUST SO HAPPEN TO HAVE A HAPPY PILL WHICH WILL TAKE YOU TO DREAMLAND AND MAKE ALL YOUR PAIN AND UPSET GO AWAY. JUST LOOK AT WHAT DRUGS THESE PEOPLE ARE ON AND YOU'LL FIND THE CAUSE. THE SIDE-EFFECTS ARE LISTED RIGHT ON THE BLACK BOX WARNING PEOPLE!!!

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Anonymous said...

^^^^^^^^^^^
SCIENO

Anonymous said...

I'm saddened by the loss of innocent lives taken at the University. Clearly there was something troubling the gunman. I'm reading many points of view on gun control - instead of taking guns away from individuals used for sport, hobby/collection, and personal protection - Aren't there countries that practice "an eye for an eye" type of punishment? I wonder if that would work in the States? Imagine the fear that would set into the minds of people that harm or do wrong to others. If people understood the repercussions of their actions and this sort of punishment is instilled into young minds... perhaps the whole outlook of crime and punishment will change. Just a thought. My prayers go to the many people and families effected by this tragedy.

Anonymous said...

Ok, people, let's calm down. Amazed at the amount of comments so soon.
Let's not take the guns out of everybody's hands. Remember, criminals get most of there guns on the black market (untraceable).
Greg is going off half cocked. Students would not be able to react and kill this guy in this situation. And would we want every student toting guns that in an argument could be pulled?
I don't think so. Teachers should have access to a gun or Tazer, but that would probably be a little late.
Scanners maybe the only solution, expensive, but what else to do? Give everybody phychological tests prior to enrollment?
This guy, was a former student, with no inkling of this. Perhaps he was on drugs, or wrong medication prescriped or overdosed. Who knows. Let's wait until we get toxicology and the investigation is done, before we all decide what needs to be done.
It's all curiously happening in the Mid West if you haven't noticed (the string of shootings) that is?
Curious... What's going on in the Midwest? Not happening in California or New York?
Something to think about. I do agree that you have to look at what's been done in places like Texas where concealed gun law has reduced gun crime since 1995.
It's a tragedy, that I'm not sure you can prevent against. But measures can be taken, if we have enough money and time to address them in a rational way.

My 2 sents from Mark in Napa, California

Anonymous said...

WHAT IS IT ABOUT LIBERALS THAT THEY KEEP PARROTING THE SAME CRAP ABOUT GUN CONTROL. GIVE UP THAT LOSING ARGUMENT ALREADY! LOOK AT IT THIS WAY... THEY HAVE STRONGER GUN CONTROL LAWS IN IRAQ AND THAT HASN'T MADE FOR A SAFER PLACE HAS IT? YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY THIS STUFF IS ONLY HAPPENING AS OF LATE, JUST REALIZE HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE ARE ON MIND-BENDING DRUGS TODAY WHICH ARE PRESCRIBED BY THESE CRIMINAL QUACK-PSYCHIATRISTS. THIS IS A NEW PHENONOMENON MAINLY HAPPENING IN THE US WHERE WE HAVE A HUGE PERCENTAGE OF OUR POPULATION BRAINWASHED BY ADS THAT THEY NEED TO BE HIGH ON PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS ALL DAY TO BE NORMAL. WHAT WAS ONCE SADNESS IS NOW, CLINICAL DEPRESSION. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING MOODY IS NOW BIPOLAR. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING SHY OR INTROSPECTIVE IS NOW SOCIAL ANXIETY. WHAT WAS ONCE TROUBLE LEARING MATH IS NOW MATHEMATICS DISORDER. WHAT WAS ONCE TEENAGE REBELLION IS NOW DEFIANCE DISORDER. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING A KID IS NOW ADHD ETC, ETC, ETC, ETC..... ALL WHICH JUST SO HAPPEN TO HAVE A HAPPY PILL WHICH WILL TAKE YOU TO DREAMLAND AND MAKE ALL YOUR PAIN AND UPSET GO AWAY. JUST LOOK AT WHAT DRUGS THESE PEOPLE ARE ON AND YOU'LL FIND THE CAUSE. THE SIDE-EFFECTS ARE LISTED RIGHT ON THE BLACK BOX WARNING PEOPLE!!! IS AMERICA THIS BRAINWASHED THAT THEY CAN'T EVEN SEE THIS OBVIOUS CAUSE?


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Anonymous said...

Give guns to everyone, just take away all the bullets.

bob said...

NO ONE needs the RIGHT to carry a gun.

That's your story. Too bad the Founding Fathers, whio wrote the Contitution, including the 2nd amendment, felt differently.

One person with a gun and reasonable proficiency with it could have stopped this, as well as the VT massacre.

Notice how these shootings ALWAYS happen in so-called gun-free zones? The wackos know that the victims are legally disarmed there.

Anonymous said...

"The UK had a nut-ball go into a school on a killing spree about 15 years ago (Dunblane), and as a result gun use was heavily restricted shortly after. There hasn't been a school shooting since...compare this with the situation in the US and it's hard to believe gun-nuts are still arguing for their right to bare arms."

Really? Because I have a magic rock that keeps tigers away. It sure must work, because I haven't seen a tiger around here ever!

That's a classic logical fallacy relying on simplified, anecdotal reasoning. There are far more factors at work in the misuse of an item than it's availability alone. There hasn't been a school shooting in the UK since they tightened gun laws, but as I mentioned above there have been killings in Sweden, Finland, Australia, Canada, Thailand, Denmark, Germany and China (I googled some more when I read your post). I'm certain I'm forgetting some, but all these countries have initiated strict gun control measures and most of them had been in place long before their shootings occured.

Anonymous said...

I don't want some pot smoking Prozac taking lefty telling me that I don't have the right to defend myself.
If I am unfortunate enough to be in the same position as the NIU defenseless victims were yesterday, I would like to have the chance to see how I would react. I would rather go out on my feet than on my knees.
I grew up with guns and was taught to respect them. My guess is that all of these kids that have snapped, grew up in pro gun control homes. I would like to see a study done on that.

fyourightwing said...

you can blame anything u want on people who pick up guns and shoot innocent people. If you haven't noticed, the problem is getting worse and worse, with NOTHING done to address it. Blame whatever u want, but if this murderer did NOT have a gun, it would have been really hard to kill all those people in a span of 10 seconds. GUNS, DRUGS, perscription drugs.. no one is denying that these are all serious issues and they are all in the forefront, with nobody doing a thing to fix it. And if you mention the 2nd amendment again... You are so frustrating. Alot in the constitution is all but irrelevant in these times. You clearly understand the concept evolving with the time, anonymous, don't you?

Anonymous said...

AND WHAT IS IT ABOUT CONSERVATIVES THAT MAKES THEM TYPE IN ALL CAPS? There's something called a shift key, people. Or type it all in lowercase...I don't care.

The US has had 42 school shootings since Charles Whitman @ the Univ. of Texas/Austin in 1966. There haven't been that many school shootings in the rest of the world since 1975.

In Scotland, Thomas Hamilton killed 16 kids and an adult, along with himself in 1996. They legislated a gun ban and low and behold...the results? A decline in school shootings. Not a single one since. It's gotta tell you something, people. It's not rocket science. But I know, I know..."Go to Scotland if you want to feel more safe." I'm not really into Haggis and I don't know if they have the Discovery Channel in Scotland. So rats. I guess I'm stuck here with with all of my gun-happy friends.

Anonymous said...

guy from the UK going on about no shooting in UK in 15 years didn't mention bombings by muslim extremists.
Which are worse than guns.
Can't compare UK to America. UK is a different society. Criminals in England have guns. Curious how much crime is up or down in the UK? Got stat's for that? Sure no one is going resist someone with a gun if you can't (legally) own a gun.
This is the West, which you created. If we had gun laws or no right to bear arms, we'd still be part of England.

Mark in Napa - Expatriate of the old country

DavieFL said...

possible solutions

1) Make it illegal to post pictures or mention the name of a mass killer in a public forum (takes away the incentive for committing these crimes in the interests of national security)

2) Create a system that addresses the social problem that is the source of these sorts of crimes: anomie

ANOMIE is a personal state of isolation and anxiety resulting from a lack of social control and regulation

100% of these killers tell someone beforehand about their intentions, but they are so alone that nobody ever listens. If society was still organized in social groups instead of by greed and the selfish pursuit of careers or money, there would not be lunatic loners.

Insane killers happen when churches, families, and communities are replaced by selfishness, and the individual pursuit of money. PEOPLE WHO ARE PART OF A COMMUNITY DO NOT DO THESE THINGS. These crimes are always committed by loners or outcasts. A society based on money and selfishness instead of social groups and loyalty is causing this.

Loners + Outcasts = Mass Shootings
Social groups, churches, homes, everybody belonging somewhere = no Mass Shootings

Anonymous said...

fyourightwing wants to get rid of the constitution???
I suppose communism appeals to you. The fact that you have the right to speak your mind is evidence that we should be thankful to the constitution. Revisionists need to be ignored!!!

Mark in Napa

Anonymous said...

Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold's were raised in a pro-gun households too. Harris' father served in the Air Force for Christ's sake. And look what happens. Trench Coat Mafia goes apesh*t and offs a bunch of kids at Columbine High. I'm sure they respected guns a whole ton.

elohiym said...

Yes, personal borne and vehicle born suicide bombs are coming to America. You can count on that.

I think everyone here is missing the point....these killers have slipped through the mental health system and/or they just don't give a rat's ass about anything.

I could show you videos of children beheading adults in the Middle East. Nobody cares anymore.

When somebody has a bad day....engage them....don't say well f**k him, I'm gonna go level up in WoW...I aint got time for this sh*t.

This is a reflection of our careless society in America. When more buildings drop...then maybe ya'll "get it".

Guns, bombs, etc....tools. The will to kill is inside of each and every one of us.

Anonymous said...

Yes- I have certainly noticed the liberal evolution of the US has taken us to these times.
Where has personal responsibility gone?
When did feelings replace common sense and achievement?
When did decency get replaced with one lewd act after another?
When did sodomy become a constitutional right and the right to bear arms not one?
When did living up to the American dream make one a villain and not an inspiration?
Shall I go on?

Anonymous said...

Not all loners/hermits, commit these crimes. Especially if they don't have access to media.
That is a part of the problem. The more we show this, the more crazy people get the idea that I can get in the news if I kill people in this way.
But nobody's arguing that we control the news like Pravda... Freedoms do have a price. Maybe we have to much freedom... Anarchy maybe close behind... Are we living at the end of our empire... like the romans who descended into Decadence and their society was destroyed.. the Enemy within....

Mark in Napa

Anonymous said...

So many people see the solution to the problem of these shootings as "JUST BAN GUN PROBLEMS SOLVED LOL"

Do you take a similar approach to other things, which cause a far heavier death toll on the innocent? I have yet to see anyone suggest that the solution to the 20,000+ drunk driving deaths every year every year in the united states (plus all the people killed in domestic disputes or barfights or wherever because someone was drunk) is to reinstate Prohibition.

Anonymous said...

America is the best country to live in, someday all states will allow us to our RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS and protect ourselves from the scum of the earth who harm innocent. GOD BLESS the 80 year old Texas man who pulled out his gun and shot the robbers, sending one to the hospital, thus saving his own life! Maybe those scum will think twice about robbing anyone, including what they thought would be an easy target... who believed in his RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. If you are scared of guns and can't handle them, don't carry.

Anonymous said...

WHAT IS IT ABOUT LIBERALS THAT THEY KEEP PARROTING THE SAME CRAP ABOUT GUN CONTROL. GIVE UP THAT LOSING ARGUMENT ALREADY! LOOK AT IT THIS WAY... THEY HAVE STRONGER GUN CONTROL LAWS IN IRAQ AND THAT HASN'T MADE FOR A SAFER PLACE HAS IT? YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY THIS STUFF IS ONLY HAPPENING AS OF LATE, JUST REALIZE HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE ARE ON MIND-BENDING DRUGS TODAY WHICH ARE PRESCRIBED BY THESE CRIMINAL QUACK-PSYCHIATRISTS. THIS IS A NEW PHENONOMENON MAINLY HAPPENING IN THE US WHERE WE HAVE A HUGE PERCENTAGE OF OUR POPULATION BRAINWASHED BY ADS THAT THEY NEED TO BE HIGH ON PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS ALL DAY TO BE NORMAL. WHAT WAS ONCE SADNESS IS NOW, CLINICAL DEPRESSION. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING MOODY IS NOW BIPOLAR. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING SHY OR INTROSPECTIVE IS NOW SOCIAL ANXIETY. WHAT WAS ONCE TROUBLE LEARING MATH IS NOW MATHEMATICS DISORDER. WHAT WAS ONCE TEENAGE REBELLION IS NOW DEFIANCE DISORDER. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING A KID IS NOW ADHD ETC, ETC, ETC, ETC..... ALL WHICH JUST SO HAPPEN TO HAVE A HAPPY PILL WHICH WILL TAKE YOU TO DREAMLAND AND MAKE ALL YOUR PAIN AND UPSET GO AWAY. JUST LOOK AT WHAT DRUGS THESE PEOPLE ARE ON AND YOU'LL FIND THE CAUSE. THE SIDE-EFFECTS ARE LISTED RIGHT ON THE BLACK BOX WARNING PEOPLE!!! IS AMERICA THIS BRAINWASHED THAT THEY CAN'T EVEN SEE THIS OBVIOUS CAUSE?


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Anonymous said...

WoW is making our society numb. People don't live in a real world anymore. A sad state of affairs.
I've been through the Mental Health ringer and wouldn't recommend it.
Drugs aren't the answer. I think our modern world has caused a lot of stress and more Mental Illness.
Engage is correct. Include people in our communities, churches.
Can't regulate a community unfortunately. people have to want to participate.
Mindsets and paradigm's are hard things for a lot of people to get there heads around. most people are just trying to survive. And went they give up... this happens.


Mark in Napa

fyourightwing said...

anonymous with his very right wing views. your views are sickening. You think just because you "respect your guns", you think everyone will? I am signing off because you, along with the news today, is making me sick to my stomach. If I could puke on you, I would. I'm so immature aren't I? Your views are what is wrong in this country. Sad and pathetic.

Anonymous said...

ANONYMOUS IN ALL CAPS... Stop copy pasting... It's annoying and everybody will hate you!!! and ignore your point

Mark in Napa
some of us aren't afraid to say our names...

Anonymous said...

GOOD Point... thousands die in DUI accidents, including innocent people. BAN ALCOHOL. Thousands die every year from cigarette smoke including innocent people breathing 2nd hand smoke... BAN CIGARETTES. Thousands of people die from doctors making mistakes BAN DOCTORS. Thousands die from drug interactions BAN MEDICINE.

Anonymous said...

And how many of these murders take place in the protection of one's drug turf?
Maybe if all you coke snortin, pot smokin, meth heads stopped polluting yourselves, the murder rate would drop. So maybe you are a bigger part of the problem than this constitution supporting(2nd amendment included), God fearing drug free right winger.

fyourightwing said...

ahole! it certainly would be a better country (and world) without cigarettes, drugs and alcohol and GUNS. It is clear humans can't handle it. But I'm sure you are a smoker...and resposnible for very high health insurance costs, and a drinker...and probably a drug user. That is not my game. But i can see it is yours. AGAIN, WE'D BE BETTER WITHOUT IT. ARE YOU GOING TO DENY THAT? Maybe you need to crawl back into the ingorant hole you crawled out of....again, u are making me utterly sick.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Napa.

I personally have no feeling of gratitude towards the Constitution for speaking my mind. Speaking your mind and opinion is a right that isn't needed to be shown to me on some piece of paper drawn up by a bunch of slave owners in the 1700's. Free speech is a right for everyone, not just those of us here in the US. It's not like the US came up with the idea for free speech...and we sure as hell didn't patent it, though I'm surprised we didn't try to.

Mr. Chicago

Anonymous said...

fyourightwing you need to move to Cuba or maybe China where everything is regulared. Government will take care of you from cradle to grave. You don't need to think. We know best for you. No vices for you. Just eat rice and green tea and live in perfect harmony with nature...
Fantasy land is never coming to this country... perhaps Berkeley is a good place for you. We have plenty of your ilk here.

Mark in Napa

DavieFL said...

Sounds like Mark in Napa and I agree on a paradigm:

outcasts/loners give up and we get mass killings.

My further point is that outcasts/loners are inevitable in a society that is structured the way ours is, but not in societies where social groups still matter more than money.

The funny thing is, people DO matter more to us than money, but you would not be able to tell that from watching TV, or seeing how many of us plan our lives.

Anonymous said...

Don't smoke. Only vice... diet coke.
What's right wing about individual liberty?
Funny how you liberals think defending our all of our rights is some form of right wing extremism.
I am defending your rights too.

Anonymous said...

Fyourightwing your pea sized brain is too agitated and overheated now. Please eat some organic soy cheese and chase that down with a large helping of cold wheat grass elixir. It will make you feel much better.

DavieFL said...

So,

Being an outcast or loner is necessary, but not sufficient, to cause a person to commit a mass killing.

If they were not an outcast, they would have something to live for, and their community would give them morality. (ie: someone who was close to them would stop them)

Anonymous said...

Mr. Chicago,

Realize that the constitute is just a progression of what is written in the Magna Carta. You think without these documents, ideas that individuals would just decide I'm going to be free and everyone else will be free with me... It doesn't just happen. People fought and died for it. The reason you have your ideas is because many came before you and established this freedom. History can tell us a lot. Learn from it or make the same mistakes...

Mr. Napa

Kangree said...

WOW you guys are fired up.

Those who are for guns will never be convinced by those who are against guns and visa versa.

I believe that we have the right to carry, and I also believe that if criminals knew that more people were carrying, there would be less crime. That has been proven in some states that have conceal laws.

I also believe that if you do not like guns, are not comfortable with guns, you should not carry a gun.

Those of us who are pro-guns, also are very comfortable, probably shoot regularly and shoot well. Most states with conceal laws have classes that have to be taken, and tests that have to be taken including shooting skills.

Just because of these sad incidents it brings out the radicals on both sides. Just because someone believes in gun control doesn't make them an idiot, it just makes them oppinionated.

The name calling I've seen on this blog makes it sound like a bunch of kids having a fight.

This is a serious issue, and should be discussed in these forums in a mature manner.

Anonymous said...

Outlaw \Out"law`\ (out"l[add]`), n. [AS. [=u]tlaga, [=u]tlah. See {Out}, and {Law}.] 1. A person excluded from the benefit of the law, or deprived of its protection. --Blackstone.
If you make laws that limit or do not allow people to have guns, only the law abiding citizen will comply. Now, who will have guns, only "Outlaws"....people who don't comply with laws any way..... I totally agree that if more people (like me) where packing, lives would be saved....crimes like this don't happen in Texas and Arizona...criminals don't know how many guns are out there...

Anonymous said...

"Scum of the earth who harm the innocent?"

These scum are citizens of what country now? So patriotic of you to bash your own countrymen.

USA! USA! USA!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

"Scum of the earth who harm innocent" If they are AMERICANS that do this... then pardon me stupid-butt... let me be politically correct.

"American Scum of the Earth who harm Innocent AMERICANs!"

What is your problem dork!

Anonymous said...

Last 2 posters you aren't making any sense. Scum Americans? Unless you have something intelligent to say. Leave please.

Mr. Napa

Anonymous said...

WHAT IS IT ABOUT LIBERALS THAT THEY KEEP PARROTING THE SAME CRAP ABOUT GUN CONTROL. GIVE UP THAT LOSING ARGUMENT ALREADY! LOOK AT IT THIS WAY... THEY HAVE STRONGER GUN CONTROL LAWS IN IRAQ AND THAT HASN'T MADE FOR A SAFER PLACE HAS IT? YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY THIS STUFF IS ONLY HAPPENING AS OF LATE, JUST REALIZE HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE ARE ON MIND-BENDING DRUGS TODAY WHICH ARE PRESCRIBED BY THESE CRIMINAL QUACK-PSYCHIATRISTS. THIS IS A NEW PHENONOMENON MAINLY HAPPENING IN THE US WHERE WE HAVE A HUGE PERCENTAGE OF OUR POPULATION BRAINWASHED BY ADS THAT THEY NEED TO BE HIGH ON PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS ALL DAY TO BE NORMAL. WHAT WAS ONCE SADNESS IS NOW, CLINICAL DEPRESSION. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING MOODY IS NOW BIPOLAR. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING SHY OR INTROSPECTIVE IS NOW SOCIAL ANXIETY. WHAT WAS ONCE TROUBLE LEARING MATH IS NOW MATHEMATICS DISORDER. WHAT WAS ONCE TEENAGE REBELLION IS NOW DEFIANCE DISORDER. WHAT WAS ONCE BEING A KID IS NOW ADHD ETC, ETC, ETC, ETC..... ALL WHICH JUST SO HAPPEN TO HAVE A HAPPY PILL WHICH WILL TAKE YOU TO DREAMLAND AND MAKE ALL YOUR PAIN AND UPSET GO AWAY. JUST LOOK AT WHAT DRUGS THESE PEOPLE ARE ON AND YOU'LL FIND THE CAUSE. THE SIDE-EFFECTS ARE LISTED RIGHT ON THE BLACK BOX WARNING PEOPLE!!! IS AMERICA THIS BRAINWASHED THAT THEY CAN'T EVEN SEE THIS OBVIOUS CAUSE?


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HTTP://WWW.BREGGIN.COM

HTTP://WWW.BRUCELEVINE.NET

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HTTP://WWW.CCHR.ORG

HTTP://WWW.ABLECHILD.ORG

Anonymous said...

Sorry Mr Napa. The first poster challenged my patriotism. My point was it doesn't matter who shoots innocent people or what country or nationality they are they are scum.

I am leaving though. This is pointless, Kangree had it right, one side won't convince the other side on the gun issue.

Point at hand. My thoughts and prayers are with the families in this tragedy. Arguing about guns isn't going to accomplish anything.

Good luck to everyone.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Napa,

If those "freedoms" were really stated that clearly in the Magna Carta, then why the need to come across the Atlantic and settle in the colonies then? I guess the Magna Carta got to be a bit too much for some people I guess.

Which, I guess, makes the Bill of Rights a progression of the Constitution. And wouldn't you say that considering the state of the country today, people are looking for that next step in progression?

Mr. Chicago

Anonymous said...

Oh, let me be socially mature then..."stupid-butt".

This "dork" has a problem with people like you who don't realize that you are the problem.

And my Daddy can kick your Daddy's ass.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Chicago,

The Magna Carta was a document that was ideals to strive for. They didn't achieve many of the rights within for 400 years (1200 and something was the year it was written). I understand forward thinking, but I don't have much confidence in the future. I just see the writing on the walls like the last day's of Rome.
What would you suggest is our next step? Just trying to get a sense of where you are coming from. I am a formerly from Britain so do understand left in the East and West (west being Europe and the US)
I have lived under the Liberal policies in Europe and they are where we are heading in perhaps 5 years. Not necessarily a progression!

Mr. Napa,

Anonymous said...

Partly, I blame myself for perpetuating a belief in my children that as a parent I could surely keep them safe, and in the event I could not, then the government surely would. My generation of child bearers created potentate children free of want and absolutely clueless with respect to risk that life surely visits upon us all. And so these deluded children have come to believe that bad things cannot happen in life, and in the event they do, that they can seek a simple remedy through government to solve it. Case in point, the belief of some of these posters who seem to believe taking guns away from everyone will stop psychopaths from killing any one of us. It grieves my heart to think that these posters not only are emotionally unequipped to deal with the bad events of life without taking extreme measures, but also deluded into believing that predatory politicians such as Clinton or Obama or Bush can solve our problems by taking away our rights.

Anonymous said...

I love the guy who posted the bill of rights. Too bad the Bush Administration only likes to enforce the second amendment. They have gutted the rest of our rights and the constitution. That is what you should be focused on. Not over conceal and carry laws. Nothing would have stopped yesterday's tragedy. All the gun control in the world or the right to carry a concealed weapon would not have stopped this man. Grieve and pray for the victims instead of pushing for your pro-gun and anti-gun agendas. God Bless the victims.

Robin said...

I think these people who do this type of murder/suicide are seriously self centered, A-moral and possibly sociopathic. I'm thinking that since he was going to kill himself, he would just go into a crowd of people and start shooting, just to get his name and face on the news. So, he would get people to somehow sympathize with how horrible his life was. Kind of like a last blaze of glory type of thing.

Anonymous said...

I think most people that are passionate here and spouting off extreme solutions are just frustrated because at the end of the day. Nothing would have prevented this. At least nothing that is in place now. Maybe there are some solutions that limit our freedoms that may work. We maybe forced to give up a few freedoms to ensure many lives. Tough balance. If only politicians would have these debates with their constituents we could have fair representation. I think that is not likely, but we can all dream ...
Let's just all move forward and try and be sympathetic to the families now. No more bantar pro and con for guns, etc is necessary.

Mr. Nappa

Anonymous said...

Mr. Napa,

The ideals of freedom exist beyond the documents they are printed on. I think we both realize that. I just see too many people with the notion that the Constitution is the "be all end all" of arguments against certain issues like guns. Yes, it's our right to carry guns, according to the Bill of Rights. However, I believe that right will not provide us with the answer to this increase in school shootings. I've read different posts on here about what is going on as far as schools in other countries and what those governments are doing. Realistically, our government is built a lot different than these others. Let their governments deal with their problems. As far as us and our problems? Put metal detectors in more schools, I don't know. Put some armed guards on campus, I have no idea. I just can't see how more guns can be the answer to all of this.

To stay on the topic of this particular board: I don't think there has been much progression as far as the "gun" issue. On one side you have people hiding behind the 2nd amendment, which personally I believe is quite outdated. And on the other side you have those who wish for a total gun ban. As far as which side I'm on? I am against the 2nd amendment but realize that there is no way that this government of a trigger-happy society would ever pass a ban on firearms. I personally despise firearms and what they stand for. I don't see them as a sign of freedom and the right to defend that freedom. I see them as a tool to take away freedoms, just like a bomb strapped to a suicide bomber's chest, or a plane full of people flying into a building, or a cowboy president with a personal vendetta and an oil fetish. Defending freedom doesn't need to be done with a gun.

As far as the next step to take? You got me there. I understand your point about the future (I feel the same way) and I definitely know complacency really isn't the answer. I do believe that healthy dialogue between people is the FIRST step. That next step is always going to be a doozy, though.

People have said that Rome did itself in. Fell in love with it's own image. Let's pray the US doesn't make the same mistakes.

Mr. Chicago

Anonymous said...

Mark in Napa - UK guy here taking up a point you made a little while ago.

I find it dificult to reconcile your remark about Muslim bombings with the rest of your argument(s). 52 people were killed on 7/7. How many Americans are killed by gun toting Americans each year? I'd say the Muslim bombings had more to do with the UK's role as lap-dog to the US than it's gun control legislation. No-one, armed or not, could have prevented the brainwashed extremists from detonating their bombs. In fact when armed police tried to apprehend a suspect running on to a tube in the following months they shot and killed an innocent Brazillian electrician. Yet another argument against guns. Way to peddle the Fox line with that comment though!

As far as crime is concerned, Britain's murder rate (per capita) is well below the US (by about a quarter if I remember correctly). The growing problem is knife crime, worrying no doubt, but it's a lot more difficult to 'go postal' with a knife than it is with a gun.

It's also difficult to blame the problems of 'the West' on the British empire, let's not forget you've been independent for over 200 years now...society has changed quite a bit since then (slavery, right to vote, industrial revolution...) to the extent where a number of the laws laid down in the constitution are well out of date...

Ben in UK

fyourightwing said...

mr chicago and mr napa.. you are both very wise, unlike the other poster. There are no easy answers. There is no doubt that more guns are not the answers, and tough decisions need to be made, or our children will not be safe any longer. My brother was murdered on 9/11. I was angrier than you could ever understand. I had fantasies about buying a gun and killing muslims. Now, I am a sane, non violent person, and i would never be able to do such a thing, no matter how angry. Unfortunately, more and more people are buying guns and doing just that. There are too many people in this country to track. The world gets more sad everyday.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Chicago,

You make some good points. I agree with you that documents are only as good as the people that use them correctly. It seems to me that lots of people use them to demand their freedom of expression, i.e. Say whatever they want (F** bombs), Freedom to protest (burn flags), separation of church and state (not in any of these documents) etc
They are political footballs. I think our founding fathers did pretty well with what they had. Does some of it need to be updated. Perhaps...
The living document mantra.. you have to be careful though...The PC crowd loves to have freedom of expression as long as you agree with their point of view.
I hate PC, because it makes you be ultra sensative to issues where people just need to spit it out. Not be afraid to hurt someone's feelings.
On the other hand, I don't own a gun, but am not opposed to owning one in the future. I think guns when used for protection and hunting are legitimate, like any other tool.
If people want to kill people in this modern world there's no shortages of ways to do it. Glass with nails and gas is a horrible example, but much more insidious than a gun.
I don't have all the answers and don't believe politicians do. but I think we have to be careful on the slope we go down. It can be slippery and the road is paved with good intention that just endup being worse.
Not to get off subject, but MTBE was a gross pollutant that was forced, (at least on us in California) by the Sierra club. Who didn't do the sciencel. Politicians tend to do this to. React without considering all the ramifications. It's good to have this debate and maybe one the candidates can debate. I'm sure we know where there position will be. But lets talk about it and try and gain consensus.

Peace out

Mr. Napa

Anonymous said...

In response to Anonymous:

My original comment - 3. To say that people are unable to tell the difference between someone who is randomly killing people and those who are shooting back at that criminal is simply ridiculous. It is very easy to tell the difference, mostly that all the bullets are flying at the original shooter.

Your response - "Really? You've been in that situation. You can see bullets flying through the air? This happened in seconds. I'm an NIU alum. My wife works there, and my brother is a student there. There were threats in December that this may happen, but with more gunmen. Students were made aware of this. How would you know who's on your side? More gunmen could have come in through other doors. There were people all over, so would you jump up and shoot over these people, or through them? Don't know about you, but I'd take my chances finding a way out rather than shooting my pistol at a guy with a shotgun who's across a large auditorium full of panicking people."

My response - Are you tellin me that you are so stupid as to not know when someone is pointing a gun at you? That's how you know that they are not shooting at you...the gun isn't pointed at you.

Now, as for this situation...of course there will be chaos at first, but I think most people are perfectly capable of noticing when a gunman comes onto the stage in front of everybody and starts shooting into the crowd that that is the person you have to shoot back at. As far as there being a second or third, it will be easy to tell who that person is because they will be the one firing into all the unarmed people!!!!!

I mean, you have got to be about as dumb as a box of rocks to not see the difference...or you are just such a coward as to not want the responsibility of fighting back...and then you can blame it on guns and society and drugs and whatever else you want...instead of coming to the reality that YOU are just too much of a coward to fight back and you don't want others to be able to fight back because that will remind you just how much of a coward YOU are....

Chris

Anonymous said...

RightWing,

"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind." - Mahatma Gandhi

Sorry for your loss. RIP to all the NIU victims and their families as well.

Mr. Chicago

Anonymous said...

Mr UK (aka Ben)

People are killed with guns everyday in America (and England) We are talking about mass, suicidal killings here. We have 300 million people here, England has what 55 million... so are stats will be higher. We have way more racial diversity here, ganglands and culture than england has. Although Londonistan is your quagmire and your Archbishop is a complete idiot and should be fired.
(a separate issue)
England, in my humble opinion, doesn't exist in the old sense of the world. It is the epitomy of political correctness and is why you have islamofacists breeding.
The rest of Europe is starting to wiseup. You can't allow to separate systems of justice to exist, one which is the detriment of your neighbors and woman.
By your argument you woul have the British police disarmmed so no innocents would be hurt and the terrorists escape? Islamic Extremists have been in England well before 9/11.
Your per capita crime rate is much lower (of course) because you are a more civilized society... but what I was saying, what are your statistics since 1995... not as a whole, when guns were more restricted there....
Knifing is pretty bad, I'm not sure which I prefer. I suppose you could restrict knives... the chef's wouldn't be too happy... but society would be safer, only the food back to the good ol days...
Not blaming our problems on the British Empire, only that in someways your right, we do have the new King George on our thrown, but not for very much longer.
In his defense, I can say that we have had no terrorist attacks on hour homeland since 9/11... Something England can't say.
bring back Maggie Thatcher, I say. I'll give Blair credit. He fought the good fight, even if it wasn't popular. I suppose you'd like to bring back Chamerberlain...

Mr Napa - Mark, formerly of the UK

Anonymous said...

i think chris here needs to lay off of the first-person shooter video games.

Anonymous said...

actually, I don't play those shooter games...I don't like them...way too violent...I do love Tiger Woods Golf from EA Sports, though...

Chris

Anonymous said...

golf doesn't seem like a sport for someone as uncowardly as you. i mean shouldn't you be playing madden or something like that?

Anonymous said...

The number of mass killings in the UK pales into insignificance when compared to the US. Dunblane and 7/7 are pretty much the only such incidents that spring to my mind...and Dunblane the only involving guns. Compare with the US (in the last year alone): Virginia Tech massacre, Delaware State University shooting,
SuccessTech Academy shooting, Louisiana State University Shooting, Notre Dame Elementary shooting, Louisiana Technical College shooting, E.O. Green Junior High School shooting, Northern Illinois University shooting.
I accept the fact that the US has a much higher population (hence my use of per capita), but even so, the list above must scream out that something ain't right!
As for being more multi-cultural, have you visited Bradford, Leicester, Birmingham or any other urban conurbation recently? I'm not particularly religious, but the Archbishop's comments were taken way out of context thanks to the Daily Mail bred islamophobia currently predominant in the UK. The fact is, we already have parallel religious legal systems - catholics have to get married twice, once in church, again at the registrar, Jewish people can have their differences resolved in a Jewish Court, and likewise, Muslims can already subscribe to Sharia law to resolve civil matters (which is all that Sharia ever applies to). The overriding tennant is that other systems of law are superceded by UK law...which they are, and which Rowan Atkinson recognised. Ignorance led to the outcry following his ill thought through speech.
And even though you may not have had any terrorist attacks on the mainland, how many american soldiers have died in Iraq and Afghanistan because of the Bush family conquest? Not to mention the number of Iraqi and Afghan citizens.

PS...Thatcher was a bitch, Blair a fool. I just hope Huckabee does't get near the white house, I lived in Arkansas for five years so have seen his corruption first hand. Religion and politics don't mix.

Ben in UK, formerly a redneck!¬p

Anonymous said...

I bet none of you know how easy it is to take on a gunman with your bare hands. You just grab the gun and take it, but all the sissies did was run and stick their heads in the sand, making them easier targets. Oh well, another killer makes the high score list.

Anonymous said...

To the Anonymous UK razorback;

Surely you don't think the aristocratic few in the UK are as unarmed as you. Who are the American aristocracy? Rossie O'donnel?, Tom Cruise?

Anonymous said...

Mr. Uk (Ben)

I agree with your assertion that killings per capita are higher here. There are many factors. unemployment, Racism, Gangs, Sociopaths, whatever.
We, from the outset have been a country that has had to fight for the right to exist. So we all had guns way back then. Was not the case in England.
We have grownup in that mentality which is why we have become the success we are. I agree that there are many guns in the hands of the wrong people. What can be done with that? Amnesty... Hand in your guns and we'll give you $100 per?
Maybe it will work for some people, but doubtful if the people that are on the edge will comply with that.
It is also interesting to note that all these mass shootings are happening on college campuses (highschools some)
Which begs the question? Is there some thing going on there that leads to this hopeless, suicidal thought pattern? I'd like to see a study. They've got funds for everything else, what's one more...
Also, it has increased in the last few years and gun sales have not gone up substantially and gun laws have become a little more restrictive and expensive to own.
I haven't visited England since 1994. The reason for Britain's multi-culturalism is lax immigration laws. a holdover from Colonial days. Any commonwealth country has the right to come to England? That's insane. Blame your politicians for lack of foresight.
As for your archbishop... He might as well be an apologist to Islam.
Does he stand for no tenants of the Christian faith?
Anglican church is one of the most watered down Christians in the modern world. Martin Luther would be rolling in his grave.
The British media has always been more inflammatory than American media. We at least have some moderation.
That's a stupid situation for Catholics marrying twice. They don't have to here.
Anarchy isn't faraway if you have all these different standards of justice.
does beating your wife in Sharia law become a British Law offence?

As to Iraq. Admittedly a quagmire which is actually getting better.
There have been many in world history. WW2, WW1, Vietnam, Korea. All of which England participated and lost many more thousands.
I suppose we were to lie down after 9/11??
Does that not promote the terrorist, if we stand and do nothing. These extremists won't rest until we (the infadel) are crushed... that's the problem with their extreme religious view.
As to Bush's family conquest...Probably should have finished him off under Bush Senior, but because of Europe's lack of stomach and our respect of the UN we stopped.
I guess Hillary will be a bitch too? because she's a woman...?
Blair was your man in Labour...What would the Tories have done?
I think Huckabee is funny and makes some good points. Is he presidential, I don't know. Didn't live under his governship. Not sure anyone really wants to live in Arkansas.. The last president from there was not my cup of tea...Hoping that I don't get a seriously bitter tea the 2nd time around.
As to religion and politics...they don't mix, but in Islam they don't separate and Britain is in an identity crisis right now.. What does it want to be. What is it to be British...
Hard to know... I think perhaps us that have been separated from Britain for a while, feel more British than you!
Hope we have better times to look forward too
Peaceout from Napa

Anonymous said...

It is evidently clear that many of the posters here, lack a substantial education in the matters they attest as fact. The Jeffersonian ideal concerning the Second Amendment was not, per se, shooting criminals off our front porches, but instead, scaring the hell out of rights taking politicians and individuals that they might in fact be the victims of gun violence, and, therefore, leave our rights intact.

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